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Proof God is real.

58K views 532 replies 57 participants last post by  TheOldSalt 
#1 · (Edited)
#25 ·
im sorry. IMO, that was a waste of 3 minutes of my life
jit: 3 minutes was nothing!!!: I have spent several hours listening to the various pros and cons on YouTube and both proponents are bunch of idiots (I know: I know: this is not nice to say but is true).

The definition of a Christian is like physics in that it gets real simple real quick.

Either you do or do not believe that a feller was walking on this Earth approximately 2000 years ago, died, and several days later was up and walking around again or you do not*. I have not observed this occurrence and have never known anyone who has.

*His teachings and those of his Apostles have really been perverted down through the years. If you doubt just look at many of the major "Christian Religions" with respect the various letters of His Apostles to the early Christian churches as well as his teachings.


Does a Deity need creation?

If not this is a "no brainer" as one exists.


Does a universe need creation?

If not this is a "no brainer" as it has always existed through its' expansion and contractions and life has been generated via processes in the nonequilibrium branch of thermodynamics which we not currently comprehend.


The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.

TR




I am not familiar with other religions and hence cannot comment.
 
#3 ·
Doesnt really matter if you believe or not, doesnt mean its not real. Sometimes we need to check our reality.
I'm not in it to debate. In fact it's not just a mental concept for me anymore. I live it and experience it. It's not enough for me to just "know" about God.

I forgot what I was taught about God, it's been all backwards anyhow, just like this life is.

What I "know" is an experience.

I know thats one of the best videos Ive come across myself.
 
G
#522 ·
************ do you mean you are not into debate? So you are into just forcing your distorted reality upon everyone without logical reasoning?

Sorry but there is no proof for either side of this coin yet, hence why a debate still rages on. Just because you do not wish to participate in debates on it does not mean you have proven anything.
 
#4 ·
His ideas are fundamentally flawed. First off stating matter cannot be created or destroyed is a misconception, it simply cannot be created from nothing by people (the universe was created from essentially nothing so yes it can be created, there are a ton of theories regarding "branes" and other larger than our universe structures that gave rise to us through the big bang). Also, Matter can be transformed to and from energy, hence why the atomic bomb works, a very slight amount of the matter is converted into energy, this is also why we have the idea of the string theory. The parts of the universe (like time, energy, and matter, gravity etc) were all one and the same before the expansion of the big bang. Einstein's E=mc^2 unites the energy and mass parts of what we know to make up the universe.

Secondly, we do not know if our universe is finite or not. Which destroys much of his basis for argument. Additionally, there are a variety of ideas regarding a multiverse approach to explain our universe. If there is an infinite number of "universes" then we have an infinite number of possibilities regarding the creation of rules for physics and such. This being so, by the nature of having an infinite amount of possibilities there will be at least one in which there are just the right conditions for our own universe to exist and give us life, statistically this is true. Personally, I believe in God, my studies in genetics, cellular biology, and other areas of biology (perhaps ironically) give me faith in a great designer. But, this guy seems a bit pretentious and he obviously is parroting something he heard without having looked at secular explanations for how the universe is as we perceive it.

I believe discover had an interesting article on the multiverse in the last month or two. Here is an excellent interview about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rg3uNrI8tE

The idea that time is universal and concrete is also false. Clocks have been proven to move less quickly on very fast moving objects. Additionally heavy things like galaxies have been shown to bend light around them and even magnify objects farther behind them in a process known as gravitational lensing. Heavy things like black holes can also stretch and pull space around them. Doing so also bends and stretches time to slow it down around them as it's gravity bends the "fabric" of space/time around it.

Also, thinking about God as an infallible and completely in-control being of sorts, the whole idea of being able to be saved by doing something seems to be a contract of sorts with Him. The covenant (think ark of the covenant which holds the written down rules given to Moses) is in direct defiance of God being in complete control. What is being all-mighty when you are bound to grant access to heaven to people if they follow some rules/believe in a certain religious figure? It seems really, that complete control would be completely randomness in acts, being that no person or thing can control what will happen next and that the supreme being would not have to follow any sort of deal with us. Interestingly, the randomness sure seems to fit the idea of a multiverse with infinite possibilities and we are just one of them. I personally don't prescribe to the random God, but it does raise a good thinking point.

Bottom line: the guy is talking with an attitude and not taking into account many other ideas and basing his view on a narrow set of circumstances which are not necessarily true. And, watch that youtube clip. I thought this forum was mostly about fish?
 
#5 · (Edited)
It is about fish. Whenever anyone talks about anything other then fish here in the water hole, it's a green light. As soon as it's about "God" it's a red light.

Anyhow thanks for the response :p
Again, remember I can learn all I want about God, but when does it actually become a reality you know. I don't want to follow a religion and go to church as a ritual to find worth.

Some folks say that all truth is relative. "It just depends on what you believe. No way we know for sure who God is and what's really true." But that means that you believe that that statement is true, "no way to know whats really true." If what's true for you is true for you, and what's true for me is true to me, what if one of my truths says your's is a lie? Is it still true?

I promise, most everyone is asking the same questions: "Who am I, what is my purpose and my direction?" Some think that they probably exist for no other reason than self-satisfaction, Hedonism, and pleasing things. "Life's about you getting your's and being happy, even if it means a divorce and switching families. Your job, your house, your car, your spouse..."

It's all for the glory of you?

"You go to school and get a degree and get a job so you make make a whole lot of money because life's hard." They never thought of living to please a real God. But that's the reason He made you. See, He gave you breath to breath and a chest to breath it, so you can taste and see He's the best. Believe it. He made us for His own own glory, and for your own.

There's some people say "Man is the source of all meaning and purpose." They say that "we're just the result of some big cosmic explosion, we don't really have a purpose or meaning so we create our own purpose. We're the source of our own meaning."

But how can a man, who is nothing but just a product of chance, be a source of meaning? We're created with purpose, by a Creator.

And everybody has a problem with God, and when you mention the Christ, then they really get to turning their knobs. But, some say they 'roll' with Christ, because some rappers make it seem like He's cool, with all that sin in their life? NO.

Some say, "How could God exist with all this evil stuff in the world keep persisting?" Wrong question. Ask again, "How come God isn't letting you feel the wrath for sin?"

Sometimes, some of the stuff you see, that you think deserves a first class flight to hell (where God doesn't dwell), well, you got that right. But He brought back life on the Cross that night. Christ died, you didn't know it cost that price? Of all God's anger put on the Son. I praise God for the life that was won for us, even if the Son was crushed.

Some people say that God isn't real because they "can't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is all-powerful, then He should stop all this evil." But what is evil? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally wrong: it's murder, rape, lying, cheating, stealing. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, what about our evil thoughts? Where do you stop? The murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil we have to be consistent, we can't pick and choose.

That means that you and I would be eliminated, right, because we've done evil stuff? If that's true, then we should be eliminated. But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin. Christ died for our evil.

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever would save his own life shall lose it; but whoever wants to lose his life for My sake will find it." - Luke 9:23-24
 
#8 · (Edited)
He uses the concepts taught in a basic logic class to try to prove something, except he has no base fact to base his hypothesis on, standard flaw from someone who clearly didn't pay attention in class. Here's a fact. We can carbon date rocks on earth to several billion years ago. Creationists argue that carbon dating can be somewhat skewed. Scientists will agree, in that carbon dating gives you a range of a few (around 3) thousand years. If you do the math, figure out how you go from a deviation of 3 thousand years, and magically get 6 thousand from 4 billion...

Second, the bible was used to teach society about the world, and about proper behavior and morality in a society that was often brutal and uncaring. The world was created in 7 days, then Adam and Eve was born. Where were the dinosaurs!?! Isn't it possible that the bible uses the context of "days" to be a length of time that the people of that era would understand? If that is true, then a day can be anything from 24 of our hours, to a lifetime, to a millennium. It's about context.

The fact is that religion is a way for people to make sense of a world that we do not understand. It is a light for those in the dark, and gives hope to those who have none. I think religion is a critical aspect of society, because without it, people would feel they have no meaning in this ever-growing world. It originally gave answers to questions that an ordinary person could understand. Scientists do the same thing, just from a different perspective. If people are willing to be open minded about science, they will realize that science and religion often work together.

During the 16th century, any scientist was executed for believing anything other than what the Vatican taught. Galileo was executed for believing the earth revolved around the sun, rather than the opposite taught by the church. In 1992, Pope John Paul II made the announcement that the Inquisition was wrong in it's opinion of the scientist, and now Pope Benedict XVI is honoring him this coming month. People who truly believe in this archaic form of science must also believe in the teachings of the 16th century Vatican, which we all know at this point to be a false truth. If not, the astronautics must be blind. If they choose what parts to believe and what to ignore, then what are they believing in? They say that people must completely believe in God, or they completely disagree with God, but they themselves are doing the same thing.

If you believe the Bible is truly the world of God, then you should also understand that it is powerful enough to stand throughout time. The Bible is here as a guideline for moral judgment, and not a strict code that is the same now as it was when the pages were written.

I am catholic, and I study phylogenetics and evolutionary biology. It works, you just have to take the time to listen.

PS. For the creationists out there.... how bout this. God is kinda busy, with the whole managing the universe, space, and time. We are just one spec in the Universe, and really aren't that significant in the "big picture". Why couldn't God have just CREATED evolution. I fail to see why people cannot accept that things change. Hell, we can show it in out own human lineage. It's complicated, I know... I'll simplify it. If something works, it stays. If it doesn't, it gets booted out. That is natural selection. It works, and has been working for Billions of years...

This is a great comic...Link
 
#10 ·
PS. For the creationists out there.... how bout this. God is kinda busy, with the whole managing the universe, space, and time. We are just one spec in the Universe, and really aren't that significant in the "big picture". Why couldn't God have just CREATED evolution. I fail to see why people cannot accept that things change. Hell, we can show it in out own human lineage. It's complicated, I know... I'll simplify it. If something works, it stays. If it doesn't, it gets booted out. That is natural selection. It works, and has been working for Billions of years...

This is a great comic...Link
I've been saying this for a long time. God CREATED GENES/EVOLUTION so that LIFE could SURVIVE on this planet. Without genes, this entire planet would be dead. The simple fact that humans have discovered GODS inner workings of providing humans everything they need to survive is a miricale in itself.
 
#9 ·
Nah, blind faith based on flawed assumptions and a poor understanding of logic has never been my thing.

There are many mysterious things that have happened in my life that I'm sure I could just say a higher power was responsible for, but I think that's a cop-out. There's a reason for everything, and an omnipotent god-figure doesn't factor into that.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Heh, I recall the last religious debate here. I think it started in the "I love science" thread. This thread is much more directly to the point. The Political Views thread was constrained to the election, so i bet this thread will be locked up after the holidays are over. :)


Anyway, I love these threads. You never really know other people's views until they can say them anonymously over the internet, most people aren't as confrontational in real life. I hope it doesn't get locked too soon.

With that being said, I'll jump in on the religious morals point. The human conscience has been with us longer than any scripture. Whether our morals are based on religion or not doesn't make them any "better". If you aren't killing people just because you believe you'll be punished in an afterlife, then that's not really a conscience. I don't need to know I'll be punished if I'm bad in order to be a decent person.


Human morals are universal. From culture to culture, and religion to religion, the basic morals are still there. Sure, there are "Artificial morals and rules" created by certain religions, like fishychic said, premarital sex is one. These rules are completely arbitrary unless attached to some religious meaning, so they aren't the universal ones I'm talking about. Not killing or stealing are two basic human morals, and I think they're "based", like everything else of ours, through an evolutionary purpose. You may say some religions or cultures stealing and murder are more common, but:
You may know a few "Christians" who do bad things but that doesn't mean that all Christians are like them.
applies to every religion.



Oh yeah, one other thing. The kid on youtube is just using kent hovind's arguments, word for word actually in a lot of cases. Just goes to show his argument, and everyone else's about religion is going in one giant circle. It will repeat itself, I've seen a million of these threads on other forums, they always come down to the same points. So by saying this kid's video is "proof" of anything other than his devotion to that religion is a bit out of touch.
 
#16 ·
The argument of morals being based in faith is really a switched up idea. Morals don't come from faith (although it can reinforce them), but rather, the morals set forth by a faith are determined by circumstance and environment and written down into religious text. Before police and large government who could control a group's actions better than God?

Across the planet there are many different religions, family/society structures, and rules regarding how to live your life. Generally speaking, these rules are for the benefit of group cohesion, through the enforcement of rules by someone that nobody can question (God, gods, etc). Being nice to other people so that they, hopefully, will treat you similarly is not strictly for Christians but a concept understood by most people. Even dogs understand the value of being treated with equality: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28112599

Morality defined as a set of rules to live your life by is a notion that seems to be more well developed in social and active animals. Ideas concerning relationships among kin and non-kin and how you interact with each is very different. Among native Hawaiians there are no such things as second cousins and other more abstract kinships. A possible explanation could be that since they are a small island very far from another land that they had a small start population where such terms were not needed and not passed linguistically to their descendants. Marriage to second cousins and first cousins may be shunned in some societies and not so much in others, usually there is a universal taboo against relations from 1st cousin and closer. Why? Genetics, humans and most "higher" animals see that it is genetically bad for the offspring. Again, the social group plays a large role in it. Rules of conduct, in all regards not just kinship, are made to help ensure that a group of individuals may continue on without destroying itself by selfish measures.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Mazta and Shev! REALLY interesting. I see your point! Thanks for sharing!

"Rules of conduct, in all regards not just kinship, are made to help ensure that a group of individuals may continue on without destroying itself by selfish measures."

What if we were stripped of this inborn sense?

What about people who believe in evolution and Darwinism? "Survival of the fittest"? If we are born with a "good sense", do you think evolution for human kind stops here since we now have a sense of what is right and what is ethical? For instance, we could kill someone weaker than us (Genetically physically or mentally disabled) and that would be an example survival of the fittest but we don't because we know it is not right. Thus letting this person with genetic disabilities to reproduce and spread certain genetic disabilities. With all this going on, do you think we would still evolve?


Whoa...i rambled. I've been up all day and working at a day care center....I am tired. :lol:
 
#18 ·
Remember what I said before:

What is wrong is right
What is right is wrong
People complain about racism
To be the prime example of a racist
To have peace we must have chaos
To create chaos we must have peace
People want equality for all
To only want it for themselves
We are all considered to be equals
But we are never as equal as others
People say that they are pure and holy
Only to be pure evil
To not give a damn about anyone except for themselves
We are taught that we have the right of free speech
To only be silenced when we attempt it.
If there was only somewhere else
Nothing is ever right
Nothing is ever wrong
What is said is never meant
To do good is to be evil
What is taught isn’t meant to be followed
People say they will be there to help you
To only turn on you and stab you in the back

So with all this insanity going on, where do you go?
I know my worth can not be found in this world and certain dreams I make for myself in life. So then where can my worth be found?

I'm not the shoes I wear, I'm not the clothes I buy, I'm not the car I drive, I'm not the house I live in, I'm not the job I work, YOU CAN'T DEFINE MY WORTH, I'm nothing here on God's green earth. My identity is found in Christ.

With that being said, I sought to see who Christ is. Most people and many "christians" don't even know to this day. I won't even be able to explain it. That is something to be dealt with in the heart and not with logic so to speak. It's an experience inside that will reflect in the outer world. It also doesnt matter if it affects your outer world. I know many people want it to affect there outer world in terms of material things, but those are things that don't last. There is something that does last and it was never ever in this world. Death is not life, it never was, but we believe that lie and live as if we won't die. Eternally speaking we won't, but there is an end to this earthly, flesh. It's a vicious circle that doesnt stop and doesnt make sense no matter how much science we use. Ultimate peace is a knowing inside and nothing or no one can affact that peace.

Life will be so much more alive when your awake and see the truth. Material things won't have a hold on your life anymore. Ideas and opinions won't have a hold on your life anymore. You have the truth and nothing can take it away. It won't have to be a struggle anymore, because every inch of the truth has been ingrained into your mind, heart and soul. It's only a struggle if you resist and hold onto the past. Sure I could hold onto my past and talk about the bad things that happened to me, (and they were horrible) but it doesn't matter anymore. Realise you are not your past and you are very much alive now (I don't mean in the physical sense)

Just remember the insanity of this world, and the perfect knowing that comes in peace, even if it means shutting your thinkers off. My ultimate goal is not the little goals I set for myself on this earth that mean nothing. My goal is all God and no subtitutes. It's the undoing of this backwards world we live in.
 
#19 ·
even if it means shutting your thinkers off.
Does the phrase "In ignorance is bliss" mean anything to you? Also, my Iphone doesn't define me, but I sure do enjoy it. Do I care what people think of me because of the cloths I buy? Nope, but I like to look nice from time to time. I also know if I want into an interview with a toga and sandles, I probably won't get the job. Items don't define us, but we can still enjoy them. We always want to have nicer things, it's called ambition, and it is the opposite of sloth, one of the seven deadly sins.

If God is the only thing that keeps you from jumping off a bridge, then that's great. That is the true purpose of religion, hope. If you act kind to others because God is going to punish you otherwise, then that is fine as well.

I am content with my life because I am making the most of the only one I have been given, by whoever. I am kind to others because I hope that if I was in that situation, someone would be kind to me, and it makes me feel good to help others.

If you really learn about every religion, they all teach the same basic principles. The way they are taught, punishments, and rewards for them are all different, but the message is the same. It is a way for show people how to be decent human beings. If you want to have a faith, that is your business, but trying to convince others that they are wrong is completely different. God tells us to take to the streets, to help the poor, downtrodden, and the weak, people that have no hope that you can help. He does not tell us to criticize everyone else for what they have been taught.

Before you criticize others, proclaiming you know the true way, you should analyze yourself. Are you doing this for your own satisfaction, because if you do this you will be rewarded? Even if the reward is in heaven, are you still doing it to be rewarded a sweet room away from the ice machine? (for those Wierd Al fans) I am content with the life I am living, and I am prepared to accept anything offered, be it good or bad. If I am punished for doing good things in the name of good, rather than the name of some deity, then so be it.

I'm done with this thread. Ignorance disturbs me on a level that cannot be described. "Shutting your thinkers off" is how you have unplanned kids, not how to discover great truths about the human soul.


Peace.
 
#20 ·
My own personal code of morality? I don't need an outdated, contradictory book to dictate the choices I should make and the method by which I should live my life. It's not that hard to see the difference between right and wrong. Simple: don't screw anyone over. Is that a Christian sentiment? I don't think so, I think it's just one that I happen to share with them.

And I don't think everything is predetermined. When I say there's a reason for everything, I mean that there is a logical answer to all questions.
 
#22 ·
I also mean

For today we eat, drink, and be merry (party) for tomorrow we die.
That's not the life I want. There is more to life then that :p
 
#23 ·
My question is, why does everyone argue over religion and belief. If one person believes that there is a God and heaven waiting from them and it makes their life feel stable, thats is great! If others think there is no such thing as a god, and they are happy with their lives, thats great too. Why does each person that believe in God argue that fact to other people that don't?? If all the people are happy with their lives and living it correctly (not killing or stealing) then why argue? Thats what I don't get. Why does one person have to aruge with another person about what they believe in? Doesn't make any sense to me.
 
#24 ·
You have a valid point. I really don't believe in any organized religion, and no one is going to persuade me otherwise, while on the other hand, I am not likely to change someones well established beliefs.

My only problem is when people(and I am not referencing anyone here or in this thread) who hold religous beliefs speak down to me from a position of moral superiority, or when they want to impose their beliefs on me through public policy. Personally, that is what makes myself, and I feel others, engage in a religous agrument. It is at times like that I enjoy disputing these subjects, but it is almost always a fruitless debate on both sides.
 
#27 ·
for every question asked there will be a somewhat different answer from every person that attempts it.morals;ethics;and all of the other things in our minds are not ours.
we know nothing except what we are taught.we embrace what we wish to accept and rebel against what we do not wish to accept.but our thirst for power leads us to dictate that others should believe as we do.and we condemn them when they don't.
i am a firm believer in god and christ.my religion is greek orthodox.i am anti catholic despite the fact the the two religions are connected.but i do believe that we are each entitled to our own beliefs without being condemned for them.and think about how many people have been killed in the name of god.
my god is your god and your god is my god.the only differences are in what we call him and how we see him.and how do we know which of us is right in their beliefs?
i will give you an example of an interesting experience i had in 1993.i was custodial parent of my daughter.the company i worked for for 21 years closed down.unemployment ran out.couldn't find a job.about to be evicted and lose everything.i had totally failed to provide for my child.i was an absolute failure.so i ate a couple hundred pills.i laid in my bed for 2 days before i was taken to the hospital.according to the doctors i took enough pills to kill 5 or 6 people.so,why did i survive?i shouldn't have...i should have been dead within 24 hours.but i did survive.the proof is that i am here agitating all of you people.
i am invincible.....at least until god says i am not..i cannot die until god is ready for me.all i know is that god had something else in store for me.most likely some kind of punishment for being such a bad person.who knows.all that i can do is go when he calls.
so believe what you wish.seek out what is in your heart.treat your fellow man with love and compassion and respect.and speak not against him for his beliefs..
arguing,debating or bickering over religious beliefs is a detriment to us all.
 
#29 ·
i am anti catholic ...
Not splitting hairs here but just curious: did you mean Catholic?


The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.
I would very much enjoy hearing other Members' comments concerning this paragraph in my post.

TR
 
#30 ·
I don't know, man... we've been down THAT road before, and it was a disaster.
Sheesh.. all I asked was what people thought fish on other planets might be like, and the commotion that followed was EPIC.

Anyway, I tend to doubt that there are very many Christian aliens out there, LOL, but they could conceivably have their own version of Jesus, if God is prone to using the same Messianic model over & over again. Or not. It's something I can't even guess. I can only assume that aliens have even more diverse religious beliefs than we do.

Crazyfishlady, you are basing your question on the flawed assumption that life is fair. Get over THAT, and the answer is plain. If ours was a world in which those things never happened to those who didn't "deserve" them, then what would be the point of anything?
 
#31 ·
hmmmm..is there a difference between catholic and Catholic.i doubt that the use of an upper case letter matters.my being anti catholic is from my personal experience with the church..from 2 different occasions.i am not against the people of that faith.i am against the church and how it treats people that are not of that faith.
 
#32 ·
hmmmm..is there a difference between catholic and Catholic.i doubt that the use of an upper case letter matters.
catholic: of, relating to, or forming the church universal

Anglicans make the distinction with capitalization, thusly:
Catholic: refers to the Roman Catholic Church

John: the above are commonly accepted capatilization distinctions and in my world there is a ton of difference.

TR
 
#33 ·
Okay, my number one theory...

How come everything we know, see, and understand must have been created by some higher power... but then the higher power is allowed to just 'be'?

People say that God created everything and then the world makes sense to them. To mean, I'm left with a question just as large... Who created God?

It's much easier to just ignore it all, assume that we are just a speck in a movement of time that will never be understood, and go on with our lives. You can't know everything and out of this fear, there came God. God is nothing more than a shield against fear, which to me is ultimately useless. You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife, and then you spend your life fearing whether or not you'll be passed into heaven. What the hell?

I'm not an atheist, because by saying that I am, I'm admiting that there is a God to deny.
 
#34 ·
You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife, and then you spend your life fearing whether or not you'll be passed into heaven.
What do you do yourself? We all do wacky and quirky things to make our lives seem meaningful. Even if it's going to school to become sucessful, to have a "great" life.

We all create things (or think we do) to make our life worth living. For me personally, I have tried everything out there that people deem important and I find no satisfaction in any of it. Not fully anyhow.

Check out this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYQWLhPzn64

Here is a quote from it

man, they swear they so gangsta but everyones the same/ everybody do the same stuff/ tattoo, piercing/ smokin' up and drinking/ money and sex plus them extravagant weekends/ if that's the high life/ I'll puff puff pass that/ you leave evaporated like you missing a gas cap/ I guess I'm passed that/cause I am in rebellion/ I'd rather have a dollar in my pocket than a mill-ion/ I'm scared to worship money, and my wants over Elyon/

Now again I am not judgeing anyone. I can't change anyone and I don't want to try. It's not my job. I do however keep my eyes set on greater things and I don't live just for the future.

You said "You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife,"

Well maybe some people do, and there could very well be an afterlife but I don't focus on that myself.

"Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is within you" in Luke 17:21"

Many people forget those words...

The Kingdom of Heaven, and the Kingdom of God, are literally interchangable in understanding.
This kingdom is spiritual in nature, and starts with the spiritual awareness of Christ, and the grace of His father God, and knowing he died for you. . it grows in us, according to our understanding, and faithfulness to God, through Jesus. . and in the next world it is us, the members of this kingdom, who will be reunited, and be forever with our Lord. . This kingdom is part of our inheritance.

This was completely new to Old Testament people, who built their whole existance on keeping laws and rituals, given to them by the Jewish leaders in the synogoges. Their whole justification was by how well they followed the law, customs, ordinances and commands of the church. The only righteousness they could attain to, was self righteousness. . Now we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus, free, and with love.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I'd rather live my own life my own way than follow a bunch of crap that was created by man, which by the way, I believe to be the most destructive and ignorant species on Earth. Believe what you want.
 
#36 ·
There are many things created by man that are not religion related.
You grew up and listened to your parents right?
You went to school and listened to everything the teachers taught you right?
You do things a certain way because other people do it that way right?

If you think that we are the most destructive and ignorant species on earth, wouldnt it be because everyone has the attitude of doing things their own way. Pride comes before a fall.

Again I will say that until a person learns to walk in humility and let go of all pride and even certain "belief systems" he will never understand the "kindom of heaven" That goes for me and all of mankind.

Many people have the attitude that "my way is the right way." I say, I don't have the answers and I always seek to walk in humilty and admit that I know nothing, then go from there.

"In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe , where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America where it became an enterprise."

I don't want to follow anything just to follow it. In fact I don't even need to be called a certain "label" because I am more then that. We all label and judge one another in various shapes and forms, it's admitting it that is the hardest. Everything we got in life was from another person somewhere along the road. So none of us actually believe what we want to.

That's when I let go of every label and way of thinking. I go into the depths of my heart and stay in the peace and tranquility that has always been there but chose to ignore. That's where "God" is. That's where I learn to grow in wisdom and truth. Never, ever will I find it in the things of this world.
 
#37 ·
This song is touching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibE0oTMMKXo

Originally written for the Vietnam war back in the 70's

Verse 2 hits home pretty hard.

"Many years have come and gone
Yet this world remains the same
Empires have been built and fallen
Only time has made a change
Nation against nation
Brother against brother
Men so filled with hatred
Killing one another
And over half the world is starving
While our banner of decency is torn
Debating over disarmament
Killing children before they're born
And fools who march to win the right
To justify their sin
Oh, every nation that has fallen
Has fallen from within"
 
#38 ·
try reading this little book..my favorite book by my favorite author..
"The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran
 
#39 ·
I don't think debating deserves the stigma it has, especially on the interwebs.

I have thought this myself but then I ask the question why do the innocent get raped, murdered, robbed, etc, etc. What is the logical answer to that?
To be an Atheist, you have to answer whether you think a god exists or not. To be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, Jew, or whatever, you have to answer the question whether your god exists and the others don't. At this fork in the road, you may as well just start flipping coins, as dumb luck is the biggest factor in any religion's number of followers, not evidence toward that religion since they essentially all have the same amount of credible "Evidence". That dumb luck, of course, is geography, where someone just so *happens* to be born.

After someone chooses they believe there is a god, everything after that I think is a baseless assumption on what that god will be like. All religions use assumptions, that I think have no merit, as the core of their beliefs, it's why they all require faith. They can only guess or assume evidence for their religion is true, such as things in their holy books. So, your assumption, "if there is a god, there wouldn't be rape or murder" is really just as baseless as any of their logic. You have no reason to assume that if there is a god, he'd follow that reasoning.

Now, as for the video, the dude makes the same mistake. He talks about how we don't know how the universe was formed, and then jumps to the conclusion his god did it. He says "We dont know what created matter, time, or space. We can conclude it's awesomely powerful and intelligent, and suddenly the picture starts to form." Well, that's a pretty large jump to go from "we don't know" to "God did it", and it's based on an assumption with no evidence. Well what happens when we do know? When we figure it out? If you look at how much time religion has had to answer such questions as "what created the universe?" and compare that to how long science has been answering questions, it's only a matter of time before such timeless questions are answered. Instead of filling in the gaps and "I dunno's" with "God did it by___", they've been converted from "I dunno's" to scientific theories. The universe is on the list, and it's amazing how much evidence there already is supporting some theories of how it all came to be. The most successful and long-living religion won't be the one with the most evidence and "proof". It will be the religion with the least proof to be refuted.

Anway, just my 2 cents. :fish::fish:
 
#40 ·
I said this earlier concerning your quote on the innocent being hurt.

Some people say that God isn't real because they "can't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is all-powerful, then He should stop all this evil." But what is evil? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally wrong: it's murder, rape, lying, cheating, stealing. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, what about our evil thoughts? Where do you stop? The murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil we have to be consistent, we can't pick and choose.
 
#42 · (Edited)
My feelings are not hurt by anything you are saying. In fact, I don't even take offense to anything anyone else says. I used to though, when the truth of life wasn't real to me. Now I basiclly live and let live, though I do like to see what other people have to say concerning certain topics. I'm sure as I get older that will dwindle down though.

You are talking about John here, then I'm sure you know

11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

It gets real simple as well once we know who the "son" is. I used to mistake many things Jesus said and use them for my own benifit. In fact, I may still do that today.

Let me give you my testimony if you will listen :p
I wrote this about a month ago for all to see, so I will post it here for you. Hopefully this will let you know where I'm coming from a little better.

I have been noticing quite a bit that the more I am taking a stand in faith, there has been more persecution, more attacks on me. (or rather what I am saying) First of all, I never mean to come down in judgement against anyone. In fact I do it all out of a great love for all of you. Will you chose to love me back? No one around me is perfect, neither am I in any way perfect. I never claim to be better then anyone, so don't get it confused when I speak of greater more pure things and add my thoughts here and there. I am striving to be stripped of all pride and walk in humility. I am growing as are all of you. It is better to be hated for what you are..than to be loved for what you are not..stand for what you believe in..even if you have to stand alone.

Walk with me as I tell you a little about my life.

I used to just sit around and not care for my fellow neighbor/brother/sister. I was only interested in pleasing myself and how I could gain something out of life. Even seeking after God was a selfish thing, because I was still trying to find a way out for me as I was tired of living in a world that is so backwards. Once I was finding a way out, I began to realise it wasn't about me anymore. I see now that we are not put on this earth for ourselves, but for each other and for one another. No one is higher then the other.

My whole view on life has changed for the better and only because I sought after truth. I don't find my worth in this world anymore. Many years I tried to find my worth but never could. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't live up to other peoples standards. I always did what they wanted me to do, and when I got there it wasn't enough. When I didn't work, I was told to work, when I worked, I was told to work harder, when I worked harder, I was told to do more, more more more . I even ran my own business and that still was not enough. Some people saw and still see my self worth in material things and how I look, and what I've done. HOW SHALLOW right? Well, we all have been there and some are still there. Trying to find ourselves in this backwards life we call the world. Someone needs to take a stand (and I don't mean in pride) I mean for the truth.

Knowing "about" God is not enough. Believing in a certain faith is not enough! There seems to be a billion paths that really don't lead anywhere. I know, I have searched and searched! We say what is good for one person is not good for the other. Is this statement really truth? It can't be. There can only be one truth! Yeah yeah I know....I heard all about Jesus, and living this so called "Christian" life and I thought I knew it all. Or did I? Was knowing "about" God enough? Sure, I was lectured about God and all his ways MENTALLY speaking, but nothing ever hit my heart. So I thought I could find it elsewhere. I searched more and more, into all types of Philosophy, religion and spiritual things. I spent countless years in what I thought was finding "God" to me, just getting more and more confused and never having that total peace I was told I could have. I was putting myself through torment, pain and agony.

LOOK AT THIS WORLD I yelled out! LOOK AT IT. It's insane! Everyone is two faced! I knew I was in a backwards world, but I didn't know how to get out! I knew I couldn't find my self worth in material things and other people, (I got that far yes, or did I) but I still strived for it. WHAT WAS I MISSING! WHAT WAS I DOING WRONG I kept thinking, thinking, thinking. Mentally trying to figure everything out.

That's where my heart grew cold and hard. I gave up. I said it couldn't be done. There is no God. There is no hope. There is no peace. I wanted to end my life. It wasn't worth living in this sick, twisted world right? Where wrong is right and where right is wrong. I wanted it all to end. Good thing I still has strength to breathe. (and thats about all) When I finally let go, and I mean LET GO, things started to change. I began to search the words of Jesus again, replaying them over and over again such as ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." and in John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. As I was reading these, I also stumbled across Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. That hit me pretty hard, because that explained the sheer turmoil I was in.
I knew my view was not in line with Gods view, it was still from mans view so I knew I was missing something. The more I began to put my focus onto Jesus and his words of life and truth, I started to rise up outside of myself, out of my pride and my lust for this world. In Luke 9:23-24 it says "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever would save his own life shall lose it; but whoever wants to lose his life for My sake will find it." At first it was hard, I felt it was a struggle, a battle, a fight and it was, O boy it was, but the more I stayed focused on the things of God, my appetite for the world got smaller and smaller. I saw the world for what it was in all it's insanity and double standards all the while seeing the world as a place that needs love, that needed guidance, that needed Jesus. Even if they didn't understand it! God began to give me a love for people, even that I had hated in the past. I began to understand forgiveness and the purpose of Jesus giving up his life and him saying "It is finished".

Look what he did, people mocked, laughed, spit, and beat him, while he was loving them, and spreading love. Sure he called out the pharisees and sadducees who thought themselves to be the most holy and the most perfect, but because they were blind! They said they saw, but they didn't see a thing! Don't we do that today, we walk as if we can see and walk as if we know it all in our selfish pride. It's always our opinion that matters, and we mock those who see things differently. The other way around, we get to a point where we are just coasting along and we say whatever happens happens . We allow ourselves to slip into the world, not making as much as a sound so that people can hear the truth. We take our focus off of Jesus, and his ultimate love for us all and get weaker to the point of going back to our old state of living. Some of us have the truth, but we don't give it! Or, we try to get more truth for our gain! That is not experiencing the full truth, understanding and knowing full truth will come when we are stripped of all our pride, and remember in Luke 8:16 No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light.


I will no longer sit around and be like the rest of the world and sit in confusion and darkness, I've been there. That's torment. That is no way to live. If I see someone suffer I will be there to comfort and not think of myself. There is light, there is hope, but not in the things of this world. If we didn't resist God we would be in total peace, and live in total love, and total forgiveness. Humility comes from accepting the fact that we don't know it all, and letting it go and giving it to God. If I am wrong in any of my doings I ask God to guide me to show me more as to how to be used in the right way, but I will no longer sit around and be content in this life full of lies and pain, and continue to see my brother and sisters in the same torment. I have that passion to go out and show the world the love of the father through me! God forgive me for not wanting to do that!

There is only one truth and it was so simple to begin with. We complicate things so much. People have distorted the truth and made their own "religion" for their own selfish reasons! Jesus did come for a reason, his message is still very alive today for a reason. His words are more alive then ever. They are life giving. Ask God to make it a reality to you, a knowing that you experience daily, not just a ritual you perform to find worth. Your desire will grow and grow so much that you can't keep it to yourself anymore. Life will be so much more alive when your awake and see the truth. Material things won't have a hold on your life anymore. Ideas and opinions won't have a hold on your life anymore. You have the truth and nothing can take it away. It won't have to be a struggle anymore, because every inch of the truth has been ingrained into your mind, heart and soul. It's only a struggle if you resist and hold onto the past. Sure I could hold onto my past and talk about the bad things that happened to me, (and they were horrible) but it doesn't matter anymore. Realise you are not your past and you are very much alive now. I guarantee you will find nothing in this world more powerful then the simplicity of knowing Jesus and being humble enough to admit it. I promise you that.
Let us be a witness in everything we say and do. In spirit and in truth!

Now this may not be everyones experience, but it was mine. I don't push it on anyone. I simply ask that people go to their hearts and search there, that's all :p

Oh and one more thing, when I say TRUTH, I don't mean it as "christian" truth because already there is a label attached to that, and I really can't be defined except in and through God.
 
#43 ·
Let me give you my testimony if you will listen :p
Well of course I listened and twice (especially as much time as you spent in preparation)!

The context of your post dissuades my fear that you are alienating and not functioning as Matthew set forth in his Gospel.

You appear to (and I really hope that you) have attained the peace set forth in the fourth chapter of Paul's letter to the Philippians.

Please bear in mind though, and this is coming from an old dinosaur, John 16:33.


Could you please respond to:

... you are depicted in your wedding tux in your avatar (I believe) but you have not addressed Paragraph 7, Sentences 7, 8, and 9 in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians.
and

The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.
???

I am "self taught" as apparently you are and hence would very much appreciate you responses (and may have several other "burning questions for you" subsequently).

TR
 
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