plant questions from a beginner

[LeafGoblinFish]

hello everyone this is my first topic post so bear with me
I currently have alot of water sprite, a banana plant, quite a few 1in vines of java fern and an
african bolbitis. now for the few questions.
i saw in one reply that plants act as a natural biofilter....do they remove nitrate, ammonia, or nitrite?
do i need this "co2 setup" thingy to keep my plants alive? im not looking to breed them just keep them alive. I do currently have the type of flourescant light for plants...the expensive one. is that sufficient for these plants. ive only got a 10 gallon with about 9 in. of fish 6 african butterfly gobies
1 flounder and 2 algea eaters(1 is the long yellow one that has the black stripe going down it and the other has the same shape but different coloration. also will algea cause problems with live plants? with the roots being on the surface of the gravel? I was told not to bury any of my plants by the local fish store. they said they will eventually grab ahold of rocks. but with algea on their roots will that cause a problem? I know i need to move the tank away from the window but i dont have room for it anywhere else and NOW im blocking the sunlight from gettin in the tank. also will algea buildups on the leaves hurt them? does anybody know any good info on the african bolbitis that i happen to have gotten ahold of? it is a very hard plant to find and i paid about $25 for a 3in. with a few roots to get shipped all the way across the country. i would really hate to kill it. oh ya forgot to mention im running a brackish water aquarium with a salinity around 1.008 nitrite is between 0 and .25 and the ammonia is never easily read. does anyone have any ideas on the ammonia testing for brackish water?

[Damon]

Welcome to the wonderful world of plants........
The java fern should be attached to a rock or wood or some decoration in the tank with fishing line for a month. It will take hold of it and you can remove the line. The watersprite should be buried in the substrate (at least the roots). The banana plant shouls be buried halfway up the "bananas". The african fern should be planted just like the java fern. Co2 really isn't necessary with the plants you have but you should really consider DIY Co2. Its cheap, easy and your plants will love you for it. What type of lighting do you have exactly? This will determine more than anything if CO2 is needed. The plants you have are undemanding and easy to grow. They should all do well in a brackish environment.

[MyraVan]

i saw in one reply that plants act as a natural biofilter....do they remove nitrate, ammonia, or nitrite?

Most if not all aquatic plants prefer ammonia to nitrate. Some may use nitrite as well, but I don't remember how well they like it rather than ammonia or nitrate.

One thing that's wrong about most diagrams of the nitrogen cycle, like this one:
http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/Cycle1.jpg
is that it suggests that only nitrate is used by plants for fertilizer, but this is very misleading: they much prefer ammonia. This is beneficial to you, since by using up ammonia directly, they prevent nitrite and later nitrate from being in your tank. Since ammonia and nitrite are far more dangerous to your fish than nitrate, this is a real bonus.

Having lots of plants in your tank when first started up is a good idea. I've just finished cycling a small (5 gallon) tank at work. I put in loads of hornwort, and it took in almost all of the excess ammonia. While the tank was cycling, the ammonia and nitrite levels never got above 0.5ppm. This is really low for a cycling tank!

I definitely wouldn't bother with CO2. It's too expensive and/or too much hassle. Note: this is my view. Some people, who are real aquatic gardeners, pay $$$$ for very bright lights, CO2 systems, and fertilizers, and they have absolutely amazing looking tanks. But these cost alot to set up and take alot of time to maintain (the plants grow so fast you have to trim them often to keep them from overgrowing the tank). With less lighting, no CO2 additions, and little to no ferts, you can have slow to moderate growth of easy plants (like the ones you have). It looks nice (if not spectacular), costs very little, and requires very little maintenance.

About those African Bolbitis ferns: I got some very cheaply from the local fish shop; they cost about the same as the standard Java Fern. They haven't done as well for me as the standard Java Ferns, so I wouldn't buy them again. I also got some Java Fern "Windelov", see below
http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=008B
from a specialist aquatic plant dealer. They were only slightly more expensive than the usual Java Fern and I think they look quite cool. But I've only had them a few weeks, so I don't know how well they will do for me.

[Damon]

The african fern is an easy plant to grow but it doesn much better in high light and CO2. AS for plants preferring NH3, NH4 over No3 this is true but Nh3 and Nh4 lead to algae growth. No3 doesn't.

[DavidDoyle]

Here is the Tropica list of plants that accept brackish water:

Aponogeton crispus
Bacopa monnieri
Cladophora aegagropila
Crinum calamistratum
Crinum natans
Crinum thaianum
Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'
Glossostigma elatinoides
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Lilaeopsis novae-zelandiae
Microsorum pteropus ''Narrow''
Microsorum pteropus ''Undulata''
Microsorum pteropus ''Philippine''
Microsorum pteropus ''Red''
Nymphaea lotus (zenkeri)
Samolus valerandi
Shinnersia rivularis
Spathiphyllum wallisii
Vesicularia dubyana

Note the african fern (Bolbitis heudelotii) is not on the list. I have this plant and can tell you it loves being placed where there is current. If will also grow much faster with co2 added. For a 10 gal tank I would start with Flourish Excel rather than diy co2. If the Excel doesnt do the job, then consider diy if you can to add co2.

As for planting, it is OK to put the roots of ferns and anubias in the gravel as long as the rhizome is left above the gravel. If the rhizome is buried, it will rot and the plant will die.

[LeafGoblinFish]

ok so my sprites need to be rooted. now i saw where someone axed a question bout an UGF giving their live plant problems...i was also wondering if putting in an UGF along with my external would be a bad idea? my fish play in the current that i have from the external all day long and i figured that when i stepped up to a 29g that i could instal a ugf and external. and thank you very much daviddoyle for the info on the brackish water plants. i have spoke to many ppl about plants for my aquarium since i unknowingly put hornwort, pineapple, a large sword grass and many other plants in the tank that wouldnt except freshwater but they all only knew of between 2 to 4 plants that would and they were all the same ones.....the ones i have. my lighting is a flora-glo 15w 2800k 18" flourescent bulb and i only have one its on a 10g tank now another question i have is about how the plants that are raised in a freshwater setup and then i put them into the brackish setup their leaves die(i gather because they arent hydrated enough) so the plant makes new leaves and the new ones are fine. but what will happen when i put my raised plants into freshwater? will they do the same thing? i heard about the current idear with the bolbitis from the guy that told me about it so i do have the current but thanx for the tips on helping it grow and i might try this DIY Co2 stuff too thnx guys

[Damon]

The leaves of the plants you currently have may die but the plant would recover if you put it in freshwater. Your lighting is very weak (1.5wpg) so you will have to be careful when choosing plants for that tank with your current lighting. UGFs and plants don't mix. Most plants prefer current as it helps them acquire the nutrients they need from the water column. Aquatic pLants will feed from their roots but prefer nutrients in the water as it costs them less energy to absorb them where they need them vs. having to send the nutrients throughout the plants (even swords). The benefits of CO2 far outweight the cost (if going pressurized) or time (if DIY) it takes to set it up.

[LeafGoblinFish]

wheres a good place to find some wicked light bulbs?

[DavidDoyle]

IMO the best single standard fluor. light I have found both for plants and making a tank look great are the Triton. They are a full spectrum tri-phosphor bulb which, unlike reg. fluors doen't need replacing every 6 months for plants, and will burn for about 1.5 years and then go out. They are not cheap- they run from about 15-22$ each depending on length. You can find them online at Big Als or Pet Solutions.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/?splash_done=1
http://www.petsolutions.com/

[LeafGoblinFish]

you know daviddoyle you are a very resourceful person can i carry you around in like a fanny pack or sumthing thnx for the tip on the lighting and thank you very much for this tropica site im still looking at the different plants available for brackish water now all i gotta do it find them for a good price but how do i get medium to very high lighting in a 10 gallon will this triton bulb work for me or do i need sumthing more powerful?

[LeafGoblinFish]

hey daviddoyle got a quick question for you how in the world do i order plants from tropica? i dont live in sanfransisco and dont plan on visiting anytime soon

[Damon]

You have a cpl of options. You could get a 24inch power compact fixture and bulb. This will give you 36 watts of light for 3.6wpg. You could purchase a dual bulb fixture allowing you to place 2 15 watt fluorescent bulbs over your tank for 30 watts (3.0wpg). You could build a DIY fixture and put as much or as little as you want (1-4 bulbs over a 10 gallon tank). Or you could order a retrofit kit from www.ahsupply.com which gives you 36 watts of power compact over your tank. The prices will be about equal give or take a few dollars. I now prefer standard fluorescent over power compacts when they can give ample wattage because the bulbs spread better over a tank vs the powr compacts which penetrate deeper and run cooler but leave dark spots over the tank.

[turtlehead]

The US can not order good quality plants from tropica unfortunately....

[LeafGoblinFish]

alrighty well ive investigated this DIY contraption but i have a question about that. if i use this DIY contraption and the plants start to over grow my tank dramatically can i just stop using it or will the plants die? and ive only got a 10 gallon tank it doesnt have that much room on the top for a 2 bulb fixture...i dont think

[Damon]

Just trim your plants. And they make all glass hoods (not to be confused with the company all-glass)

[MyraVan]

Simpte says:

The benefits of CO2 far outweight the cost (if going pressurized) or time (if DIY) it takes to set it up.

and

You could get a 24inch power compact fixture and bulb. This will give you 36 watts of light for 3.6wpg.

3.6wpg is a HUGE amount of light, especailly for a tank as shallow as a 10 gallon. If you do have this rather drastic amount of light, you will need to add lots and lots of CO2 and ferts, else all you will grow is a good collection of algae.

Simpte is a big proponent of the high-tech approach. The benefits of this are that you can make some absolutely super looking tanks. They are like very carefully manicured gardens. The drawbacks are the incredible cost, and the large amount of time it takes to set all this stuff up, and keep your plants trimmed back because they will grow like MAD.

In your initial post, you wrote:

do i need this "co2 setup" thingy to keep my plants alive? im not looking to breed them just keep them alive.

It sounds to me that, at least initially, you're looking for a way to keep some nice-looking plants alive in your tank. Unless you really want to spend ALOT of money and ALOT of time setting up and maintaining a showtank, then I suggest that you start out on the low-tech route. Then you can add more of the high-tech stuff if there are some specific plants, or some specific look that you want to acheive, that can't be done using the low-tech method.

Read this
http://mike-edwardes.members.beeb.net/plant/tanks.html
for one person's experience of low-tech vs high-tech.

I have a 20 gallon planted tank with 30W of light: two 15W bulbs with reflectors. It looks really nice. Over the months since I first added plants to it I have been rearranging them, taking out that ones that didn't do well, etc, until I've hit a combination that's visually pleasing, as well as making a nice environment for my fish. I use no CO2, but do use some cheap ferts I got at the local fish shop. My plants grow slowly but steadily.

I also have a 5 gallon planted tank at work, with an 11W flourescent desk lamp for lighting. It doesn't look very good now, because it's only been up about 3 weeks, and I'm still replacing the hornwort I used to eat up nasty chemicals while cycling with more attractive plants. In a couple of months it will look pretty good, I'm sure.

My suggestion would be to get one of those Triton bulbs that David Doyle recommended and put a reflector behind it. Make sure that you have your plants planted in a substrate that will allow them to grow. In my 20 gallon tank I have my plants in little pots with Flourite, so I didn't have to replace the entire substrate (plain gravel). Then add asmall amount of some basic aquatic plant fertilizer from the fish shop, and see what grows. Throw out the plants that don't grow and replace them with ones that you think will have a better chance in your tank. Or, if you're really set on making some plants grow that haven't worked, then try adding some CO2 or more lighting, but don't do it until you're certain that the low-tech approach won't allow you to achieve the results you want.

[MyraVan]

BTW, I forgot to mention that sunlight isn't necessarily bad. In fact, it can be used to boost the artificial light in your tank. The problem comes when you have too much light in total, either from too much artificial light (like 3WPG or more and no CO2 or ferts), or too much sunlight in combination with artificial lights. That's when you get the algae problems.

A common trick in low-tech tanks is to place them so they do get some natural sunlight. Both my planted tanks get some direct sunlight on sunny days, and a fair bit of indirect sunlight on cloudy days.

[Damon]

Lighitng is only ONE factor of algae growth. Lack of CO2 and ferts will also encourage algae growth. Fast growing plants outcompete algae. Higher lighting will allow for a bigger variety of plants. With a 10 gallon already set-up, one could convert it for less than 60.00. While you may thin thats a lot, the money goes to lighting. Slow growing plants are nice, but are more succeptible to algae attacks then nutrient sponge plants. I'm not necessarily saying you need 3.6 wpg. but I've heard the story too many times a person wants real plants, goes out and spends 20.00 on them only to have them die because of improper substrate, lighting, and nutrients. And you are severly limited to plants you can grow.

[MyraVan]

I've heard the story too many times a person wants real plants, goes out and spends 20.00 on them only to have them die because of improper substrate, lighting, and nutrients.

Yes, you are 100% right. Anyone who has a plain gravel substate and the standard one tube light you get with a hood will be pretty much destined to fail in growing plants.

However, the low-tech approach is very different from just sticking any old plant into random gravel with any old lighting. It requires just as much knowledge and understanding of how things work as the high-tech approach. (More or less, it requires reading and understanding Diana Walstad's book.) It's just far less expensive, far less work, and, as you say, you can't grow as many different kinds of plants.

I don't feel limited by the fact that I can't grow some plants. I take the same approach with our garden outside. We don't water or fertilize anything, and we live in a fairly dry area (yes you can get dry areas in England!). So we only plant things that will grow in this environment. Furthermore, we don't plant things that grow too fast, because then you have to spend all your time with the gardening tools hacking them back. I enjoy looking through the gardening books for things that will grow will in our climate. We don't have a showcase garden by any means, but it looks decent, and it takes very little time to maintain.

If people want to go the high-tech route, they are welcome to. I am often amazed by the photos I see of high-tech planted tanks. They are downright beautiful, sheer works of art. I also know they are 100% not for me. I do have the money to do that sort of stuff if I wanted to, but I definitely don't have the time nor the incliniation to maintain that sort of tank, just as I don't have the time nor the inclination to spend all my weekend in the garden watering, fertilizing, and pruning garden plants. Some people do (that's the way my father-in-law spends his weekends).

What I want to emphasize in these posts is that there is a low-tech route that is just as successful as the high-tech route, if you define successful as having attactive healthy growing plants in the aquarium. And I will reiterate what Simpte says, that you MUST have proper lighting, substrate, and nutrients to grow plants. It's just that you can grow plants (not all plants, and they won't grow very fast) with a good substrate (this is required no matter what route you take!), moderate lighting (~2WPG), no CO2, and little in the way of ferts. But, I will reiterate another thing that Simpte says, these things have to be in balance. Too much of one thing and all you'll grow is algae.