Plant chemicals that don't alter pH

[euRasian32]

There's a 90% chance that I won't be getting any stingrays, because my arowana is quite nasty. I'm exploring options and a planted tank is my first and favorite so far.

I'm curious about the chemicals used for plants, and hopefully some of you plant fanatics can share first hand experiences with the chemicals you use.

I've done some reading through the plant forum here, and other places and I've got some good info so far. I've seen the best and the worst substrate thread... plants in sand... etc.

I currently have a small layer of sand, and I understand that there aren't any nutrients in sand to make plants thrive, unless you added them. I don't want to have a substrate that will alter my water chemistry at all, so I want to stick with sand and adding some more, or a sand/gravel mix

I'm just learning about CO2 and the importance of it in planted tanks, and there are units that you can use or chemicals and or tablets.

I haven't done any research on the many types of chemicals and tablets yet, I'm hoping to get some points of reference here.

To recap:
wondering about a good CO2 method. I found a unit for 20 bucks that uses sugar and converts it to CO2. anyone use a tablet or chemical for CO2?
wondering about a good fertilizer tablet/chemical.

TIA,
C

[MyraVan]

Well, I'm a plant fanatic, but I use the low-cost, low tech method and thus don't use any chemicals or CO2 systems. This does limit somewhat the variety of plants that I can grow, but there is still a wide range of things that work well in my tanks. In particular, hardwater plants like vallis, hornwort, and anacharis grow very well because we have hard water (the hardwater plants can use bicarbonate and don't need much if any CO2).

If you want advice on chemicals and CO2 systems, Simpte is your man!

[euRasian32]

thanks myra,
i read your input on substrates and you mentioned soil and gravel. I'm probably going to do that in an old hex tank of mine, no fish.

I don't have any of my references to the CO2 unit i saw here at work, but when i get home if i remember i'll post the Brand and description of the unit i saw that uses sugar to make CO2.

[Damon]

For chemicals (fertilizers), http://www.gregwatson.com is your guy. You can buy dry chemicals and mix with R.O. water very cheaply. 1 order will last you well over 1 year and more. The first thing to know is what plants need........

Macronutrients.........(Nitrogen, Phosphate, Potassium). These are the building blocks of plants and what they utilize most of. I'll discuss these more in depth farther down the post.

Micronutrients........(Boron, Calcium, Chloride, Copper, Iron, Magnesium, Manganese, Molybdenum, Sulfur, Zinc). These are what they need but not in the quantities of others. (Also called trace elements).

Luckily your water source contains almost all of these but not in the quantities you will need. Plantex CSM+b is what you need to supply these for your plants. Tropica's Master Grow is IME the best commercial source for micros.

For each macro, there is usually a couple of sources for them.

KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate). Supplies 2 of the 3 you need
KH2PO4 (Mono Potassium Phosphate) Supplies 2 of 3 again.
K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate) Good source of potassium again.
Potassium is the one macro that doesn't hurt to overdose as much as the others. To much nitrate is toxic and too much PO4 can lead to algae blooms.

I use the first 2 in my normal dosing schedule but keep the third one in case I need more Potassium but no more Nitrate.

Here is a link to Greg Watsons page again....
http://www.gregwatson.com/DryAquaticFertilizers.asp

Here is a link that may better explain nutrients in the planted tank.
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_p...izer_intro.htm

DIY Co2 is very cheap, and easy for tanks 30 gallons or less.
A google search will yield many results.

[euRasian32]

wow

thanks mang

[Damon]

Glad we could help. And don't let Myra fool you. SHe knows more about this stuff than she lets on *wink*

[euRasian32]

I'm going with lots of low light plants like java ferns and mosses which are all going to be rooted onto driftwood, and some floating plants. I've got some wal-mart bulbs in my tank now which are hardy and they're thriving, but I knew that the addition of more plants would deplete the present nutrients, so I knew that I would need to suppliment the depleted elements. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't altering the PH with chemicals or fertilizer tabs. Onto researching CO2 systems.

thanks again

[Damon]

Fert tabs work, but are not as effective as water column dosing. And if you accidentaly stir one up, you could end up with a greenwater bloom. They also make the plant work harder by having to draw up the nutrients through the roots and sending them throughout the plant vs just absorbing them where they are needed. Be sure to stay away from any that contain NH4 (urea) as this is an algae's fantasy substance. For your tank Tropica's mastergrow is perfect although more costly in the long run than gregwatson. Either would be fine as you won't need much.

[Aqua Essentials]

Originally Posted by Simpte

Fert tabs work, but are not as effective as water column dosing.

Can't fully agree with that statement - some plants absorb up to 80% of their nutrients through their roots which is why there has been so much development into substrates. Take Amano for example - a major part of his success is down to the fact that his substrate provides most of what the plants need. When the substrate begins to deplete it is essential to top those nutrients back up in the form of root tabs or capsules.

As for

Originally Posted by Simpte

making the plants work harder by having to draw nutrients up through their roots...

this is simply not true. It's a very natural proocess for a plant and is how they have evolved. It's also an efficent way of extracting nutrients from the substrate in which they grow.

[Damon]

Its natural, but not easier. And you must have Mg, K, Ca (your micros and potassium) and of course CO2 in the watercolumn. I don't disagree that a nutrient rich substrate will always outproduce a dead one. But a good substrate (that is what we are talking about here) will draw depleted nutrients back into itself for later use. Fetr tabs must be placed close to the plants and are hard to replant. Colum dosing provides an easier way to ensure every plant gets what it needs. Would one say that the fert tabs don't release into the water column? I don't think so. Here is a link that one of the foremost aquatic plant experts puts his 2 cents in about similiar topics (dealing more with algae but he hits what I am saying on the nose in his 2nd or third post in this thread.)
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...ead.php?t=2689

I've never known Tom Barr to be wrong about it.

Edit:

Sorry had to add this post directly into this thread for those who don't want to read the whole thing.

Quoted from Tom Barr, Plant physiologist:
"Bowes(2004), Barko(1981), Cargreen(2002) all found independently that plants will take the nutrients from the water column first, not the substrate given the choice on non limiting conditions in both locations.

These were controlled studies.

NO3 binds to negative layers in clay matrices and can be chelated and complexed as well. I'm not so sure it's NH4 that's in there, but I know a simple test to find out.

If someone uproots this before the bacterial layer forms, SOL.
Any macro substrte method does that.

So why not add KNO3 down there instead?
NH4 does not increase plant growth that much if you have good NO3 levels.

You guys want to figure this stuff out? Do friggin controlled test and try adding KNO3 or NH4 down there.

I've done that already.
I've done the water column.

I just ain't seeing the benefit from substrate fert's.
I also have the top researchers in controlled studies for support. Amano?
"power"........nice guy, great artist, but come on......many folks that have met him etc have said he's no plant physiologist. I would not even ask him about any of that, you'd never get an answer. I've hung out with him a couple of times and listened.

What I have not done: added/soaked NH4 to kitty litter, capped with sand, tested the ADA stuff in the jar test. Flora base is made by the same company that makes Amano's substrates also from what I've read and heard.

Clay by itself will bind ions from the water, PO4, NO3, NH4 etc.
1/2-3/4 Baked clay will be somewhat like Flora base.
I suppose I can dig up the info on that and see how it's made.

But back to the original issue:
Why not fertilize from day one?

Even if Amano adds NH4 to the sub, adding KNO3 to the water column is not going to change that. NO3 excess does not cause algae. He does not add NH4 to the water column (except fish).

BTW, you can get around that pesky bacteria issue by adding mulm, what is better than adding wht is precisely from an established tank full of active bacteria? Nothing I know of.

Regards,
Tom Barr"

[MyraVan]

I'm beginning to really agree with Simpte's signature. In plant fertilization issues, ignorance is bliss! I simply don't want to get into this stuff!

Although I will comment on one thing: putting nutrients into the water column means that algae can access it as well as plants. Putting it into the substrate, even if it makes it harder for plants to get at it, means that it's not available to algae. So it seems to me, without having any in-depth knowldge of any of this stuff, that it might be easier to get your plants growing without getting too much algae by having a rich substrate rather than rich water.

[Damon]

Algae will always have access to nutrients, to the level we cant measure (I can dig up proof on this one also but it will take awhile as I have 300 plant links and tidbits). The easiest way to prevent this is to make sure the plants aren't depleated of any nutrients. If they are short one, they will not uptake the others. Putting nutrients in chleated forms makes it harder for algae, but also for plants also. Though some nutrients (Fe for example) can be toxic at moderate levels. We use chleated forms Fe2 (i believe) to help prevent this....

Nutrients aren't hard. I could sit here and break down each one and how it affects your aquarium in what ways but its not necessary nor really important if you use the E.I. (Estimative Index)method (Tom Barr). Give them what they need, waterchange to remove the excess. Simple and very effective. Take a look at http://www.barrreport.com . Most of the site requires membership but the topic doesn't.

Nutrients are no harder than learning about fish compatibility, stocking levels, and basic aquarium upkeep. Some get it right away. Some take a little longer. Patience is the key. There is much info on the net to assist you. Your fish will love you for the natural environment and its a great backup for a power failure or filter failure.

[MyraVan]

Originally Posted by Simpte

Your fish will love you for the natural environment and its a great backup for a power failure or filter failure.

Hey, you don't need to convince me; all three of my tanks are planted.

The plants clearly provide a great backup in case of filter failure, but do they really protect against a power failure? They don't produce oxygen when the lights go out, and I would have thought that they wouldn't take up their nutrients (like ammonia) as much with the lights off either, but I don't know.

Anyway... I was about to dismiss your suggesting that I read up on dosing, with the statement "my plants are growing well enough for me already, so I won't bother" but I figured I at least ought to visit the Barr link before I dismissed it! And lo and behold, I found an article where he discusses Diana Walstad's methods ("Non CO2 methods"). To my surprise he thought that the approach has merits (mainly the merits that I feel it has, that it's a way of getting a nice planted tank with much less money and effort), but suggests adding very small amount of ferts, specifically 1/4 tsp of Seachem Equilibrium per 20 gallons of water once every two or three weeks, and says that this really helps the plants grow. Well, I may try this on my tanks and see what happens. If I can find it! Aquaessentials, from whom I have ordered before, have lots of Seachem stuff, but not this product. Maybe I'll find it in one of the local shops...

[Damon]

Plants still take up ammonia, no2, and no3 (in that order) but not in abundance as when they are in their photoperiod. There is still light available provided it is daylight outside and the room isn't completely black. They spend much of their downtime utilizing what they already have stored for growth.

[Aqua Essentials]

Originally Posted by MyraVan

suggests adding very small amount of ferts, specifically 1/4 tsp of Seachem Equilibrium per 20 gallons of water once every two or three weeks, and says that this really helps the plants grow. Well, I may try this on my tanks and see what happens. If I can find it! Aquaessentials, from whom I have ordered before, have lots of Seachem stuff, but not this product.

Look no further MyraVan we've always stocked it!!!

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/inde...products_id=97

[euRasian32]

Originally Posted by Simpte

Some take a little longer.

:raises hand:
so chemicals and fert tabs won't alter PH?

Does anyone know if Equalibrium won't alter water? Or Flourish tablets? or the soil Myra uses?

If all goes well I'm going to kickstart my ideas next weekend, and hopefully I'll have completed at least one to post some pics.

You guys are awesome. I'm going to try out some of the above mentioned items and definitely use all this info for reference. I'm going to start out with the 1/4 dose method too. This was the regulator I was talking about, Hagen CO2 Natural Plant System.

Aqua: do you offer a FF member discount? if so what's shipping rates to U.S., Virginia, 22401?

[Aqua Essentials]

Discounts are offered to regular customers but as a gesture of good will, I'll chuck in a free pot of fish food.

If you log into our site and put what ever you want in your basket, then clcik on "Estimate Shipping" it will give you a price.

Hope this helps but if not, just let me know.

[MyraVan]

Originally Posted by Aqua Essentials

Look no further MyraVan we've always stocked it!!!

Ah, I didn't find it because I expected it to be under Fertilizers rather than Water Conditioners.

It says there that "Equilibrium™ raises the essential mineral/electrolyte content (General Hardness) of the water to balance with and promote stability of the carbonate hardness" Well, we have quite hard water (240ppm KH, 300ppm GH), so I'm not sure this is useful. Or is this saying that it adds minerals that my hard water won't have already? Simpte, do you have an opinion?

And euRasian32, I don't think that Equilibrium will alter pH. If it raised the KH it probably would (the water would be more buffered), but the blurb on the Aquaessentials website says "To maintain KH, we recommend Alkaline Buffer™", so Equilibrium won't in itself raise the KH (I think).

Some soils definitely will raise the KH amd thus (probably) the pH. If you have a chalky soil, it will contain alot of limestone which will increase KH. But the stuff I use is a combination of 50% cheap topsoil from the garden center, combined with 50% "aquatic compost". Both of these are very unlikely to change your pH. The aquatic compost is a soil/compost thing especially meant for use in potting up water lillies and such in ponds. It is not kiln baked, and thus bears no resemblance to "Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil" that you might come across. In a discussion about natural planted tanks elsewhere, I have discovered that the aquatic compost that I use doesn't seem to be available in the US.

Although I think that Aqua Essentials is a good company, I think it wouldn't be practical for someone in the US to order from them, since they are based in the UK and the shipping woul dbe so expensive. I'm sure that Smpte can recommend a good on-line aquatic plant supplies place in the US. I use forums at AquaBotanic
http://www.aquabotanic.com/
but have never ordered from them., so can't specifically recommend them. I have got some useful info from Florida Driftwood's web pages
http://www.floridadriftwood.com/store.asp
but again I have never ordered from them.

[Damon]

If your water is already hard, it won't make a noticeable difference. The plants will use some of the minerals added so I wouldn't worry about it. You may not even need it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
As for places to order plants from there are many. (Most are sponsors of AquaticPlantCentral website. (Even Amano's company sponsors here).

Here are a few others I've ordered from with good results. Remember a LOT of places grow their plants emmersed because they ship better. For immersed plants aquabid.com is your best bet.
http://www.freepgs.com/jdinh04/index.php?id=main (The Zen Gardens)
http://www.aquabotanic.com/abstore/index.html (Myra listed this one already)
http://www.aquariumplants.com/cgi-bin/cart/index.html (Very Large selection)
http://www.aquatic-store.com/ (Marcus is great)