Sodium phosphate and algae

[Lara]

HI there,

I stopped using a pH buffer in my planted tank as I realised it had phosphates in it and I had at that time a persistant green water problem. The green water problem has resolved itself despite the fact that I'm using a pH decreaser that contains sodium biphosphate. I have tried to find one that doesn't contain anything phasphate like but they all seem to either have sodium biphosphate or sodium phosphate. I am however doing more frequent water changes due to having fry in the tank so perhaps the green water cleared up on that fact alone.

So my questions are, is sodium phosphate/biphosphate a nasty? If so what can I use to lower the pH instead of a pH decreaser? If not why not?

Thanks,
Lara

[Damon]

Not too long ago it was feared that PO4 (Phosphate) will cause algae. We have since learned that this iss just not true.
No the PO4 will not hurt your tank. I dose fleet enema (yes you read it correctly) which is 2 forms of PO4 in my planted tanks.
Back to the matter at hand...........
Greenwater, once introduced is hard to get rid of in high tech tanks. If your tank is low tech, congratualtions, you've done what very few have done, gotten greenwater A simple balckout for 4 days with a water change on the 5th day before lights on may work. If the tank is high tech, Keep No3 levels up and CO2 up. Waterchanges every day or every other day to remove dead algae. Adding filter floss to your filter will help also in either case.

[Lara]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand , what's the difference between a hi-tech and a low-tech tank? and what causes algae if not phosphate? I don't have CO2 does that make me low-tech? During the green water epedemic the only nutrient that tested through the roof was phosphate, everything else (nitrate, ammonia etc) was fine. I did three black-outs in the manner described (complete black-out with no feedings for 4 days) that made no lasting difference until I stopped using the pH buffer. Could you possibly please point me in the direction of some more current reading material as I have read a heap that says phosphate and/or nitrate is usually the culprit. The green water appeared very suddenly when two things happened simultaneously: I changed the globes in my lightbox to an inferior brand (but changed back within a couple of weeks) and fry hatched. I have since had fry hatch without this occurance.

Thankyou for your response ,
Lara

[Damon]

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...ght=greenwater

[euRasian32]

Using peat moss in your filter is a natural way to lower the PH.

[Damon]

Seachem also makes a phosphate free ph alterer.

[Lara]

Thanks , I'd actually read that before, but only remembered the willow part!

[Lara]

Simpte, I had not heard of fleet enema (perhaps we don't get it in australia) so I just did a google search on it!!! Why do you put this in your tank and where on earth did you get the idea?? I assume you use it as some sort of fertiliser????

[Damon]

Correct. Most of the ferts used in tanks (NO3,PO4,K) can be purchased (at least here in the states) at your grocery store and or supply/garden store. Fleet enema is PO4. Greenlight Stump Remover is KNO3.

[Lara]

Sorry to keep bugging you but I thought enough phosphate entered the water form fish food, waste etc. Is that false? Is there a list of this stuff (alternatives to commercial tank preps) that can be found on the net? As you can probably tell, chemistry isn't my forte but I'm beginning to find it quite fascinating...If only I'd paid attention at school!

Thanks for being so patient in responding to my qeuries . By the way, what is the diff. between a high tech and low tech tank?

[Damon]

We are here to help Why are you so concerned with PO4? Some fishfoods are high in it, while others aren't. With regular waterchanges, nothing will build up in excess p[rovided you aren't overfeeding, keep up with gravel cleanings, don't overstock, and keep a regular lightcycle.


High tech tanks are planted tanks that have high light (over 2.5wpg), CO2 (whether it be pressurised or DIY), a good plant substrate, and routine fertilizer dosing.
Low tech tanks have less light (2wpg and under), No CO2, just about any substrate, and very little, if any ferts.

[Lara]

I'm not really overly concerned with PO4, just trying to collate everything I've read and all the different opinions . I assumed before this post unfolded that the nutrient that caused problems in my tank was phosphate because the readings were so high (over 2ppm), meanwhile my nitrate was normal at 5ppm. Now I'm thinking maybe it was because the balance was wrong or that there was ammonia from the fry that was getting used up by the algae and therefore not registering when I tested??

My tank is 60L (15.9g) and I have 40watts of lighting (2.5wpg), use fertiliser (Sera) regularly but don't have CO2 or special substrate (only gravel). There is a lot to be read about DIY CO2. What is your opinion (DIY over bought system)? Do you have a preferred reference on this topic that will explain exactly how to go about it? I've been trying to keep things fairly simple as I have a toddler in the house but would consider adding CO2 if it's going to help the plants beat the algae. I suspect the only thing keeping it in check at the moment is 30-50% daily water changes due to having fry in the tank.

[Damon]

You are starting to understand alge. Kudos to you. It can take a person several years to understand the concept you have (imbalance propogates algae, not PO4). If plants win, algae loses. Its that simple. As far as co2 for your tank, I would suggest using 2-litre bottles, a little silicone tubing (regular airline tubing isn't very effective), and a glass diffuser (there are many out there and it will cost approx 16.00). This will leave you very pleased.

[Lara]

I just checked out this site http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html, it made my head hurt . I'm not really the DIY type but will try and nut it out. This site advocates using a DIY powered reactor (which also doubles as a filter apparently) but I already have a filter (Eheim internal) so is this necessary? If not how do you suggest I get the CO2 in the water? If it's going to be noisy I don't really want to hook it up to my filter It also says that 2 x 2L bottles will suffice for a 29-55g tank and my tank is much smaller, so should I just use one? Cheers, Lara

[Damon]

Eheims make good filters. Their canisters can be used as reactors but not sure about the internal version though. Powered reactor, while more effective than passive diffusers, are not a necissity. A wooden diffuser or glass diffuser will be just fine for your tank. Wood diffusers are cheap (like $3.99 for 2) but require more matainence the glass ones and have to be changed every 6-8 months.

[MyraVan]

Simpte is more of an expert at this stuff than I am (has been doing it longer and has studied it more) but if you have plain gravel, I would think that putting down a substrate that's more plant-friendly would be more effective at promoting plant growth than adding CO2 (but then I'm not sure about this as I have never used CO2 injection). In the long run, it owuld be less trouble than doing DIY CO2, and in the long run it would certainly help with your algae problem.

I recently (couple of week ago) changed over the largish round gravel in my 20 gal tank to soil + gravel. It was suffering badly from some yukky black algae, and my two other soil + gravel tanks have much less algae, so during our move to a new house I decided it was time to make the change. Note: I'm a big fon of low-tech planted tanks, especailly of soil + gravel substrates. Simpte is more of a high-tech guy, but recently he has come round to being more open to low-tech ideas.

To change the substrate I removed all the plants and decorations, then the filter, then put the fish in big plastic boxes (this was the hard part, zebra danios are very difficult to catch!), and put the filter in with the fish. Then I took out all the old gravel (saving some of it), cleaned the tank (with algae scrapers only), put down 1" of soil (half aquatic soil, half cheap topsoil), wet it, put in the plants, added 1" cheap small gravel, and filled slowly (pouring the water on top of a plate that I put on an unplanted patch so it didn't stir up the soil). Then I added the decorations and the filter, then put some of the old gravel in a stocking and put that in too (in hopes of saving some of the bacteria from the old gravel), then put the fish back in. While putting the fish back in I kind of cheated: I just drained off most of the water from their boxes and then poured them in with the remaining water. It was less stressful for me than chasing them with a net, and probably less stressful for them.

Then I set up an automatic fish feeder and went on holiday for a week and a half! Fish were all fine when I came back, and although there certainly is some algae (which is what you would expect from the first few months of a soil + gravel tank) I think the yukky black stuff is on its way out.

As for the toddler, well we have a 2.5 year old, and Granny (who came over to help us thei the move) somehow managed to keep her entertained while at the same time vacuuming the floors at the new house. Aren't grandparents wonderful?

You probably won't be able to do the substrate change while you've got alot of fry, but I'm surprised you have to change so much water! Are your fry very sensitive, or something? When my white cloud mountain minnows had babies, I just kept up the usual weekly water change (which is fairly big, 30%).

[Lara]

No, prob no more sensitive than any others but my prob is that in a 60L tank I have about 100fry (at least) too small to give away, 2 adult bristlenose pleco's and 6 zebra danios - so the large daily water changes are more of an over-population issue! I was going to put a flora substrate in when I set up the tank but I couldn't find any and was impatient. When/if I move I'll set it up better but hope to have a larger tank before then anyway. Thanks for all the advise. Will prob try DIY CO2 but it will have to wait until Uni semester is over - I don't have time and algae is not an issue at the moment - you would hope not with that many pleco's in one tank. !!