Ammonia problem.

[DavidB86]

Hi all,

I recentally re-did 45 gallon tank that i've owned for quite some time, because over my two week vacation in Puerto Rico my power filter went out and 75% of my fish died. Anyway.. I completely emptied out the tank, and put the other 25% of the fish in a small holding tank for a few hours while I was doing this. Scrubbed the entire thing out without soap, cleaned the filter, added all new gravel, and filled the entire thing up with treated tap water. I let it run for about 24 hours before I re-introduced the old fish back into it. I added Stress Zyme (bacterial starter) on day 2. I also bought a PH, ammonia, and nitrite test kit. The PH stayed at a normal 7.2 for the first 2 1/2 weeks, and the ammonia stayed at a steady 1.0-2.0, and the nirite at 0. I added Ammo-lock every 2-3 days for the 2 weeks to try to keep the ammonia levels under control. On day 7 or 8 i went out and bought 7 hardy fish.

Everything was going good up to about 3 days ago, when my ammonia level went through the roof on the test kit (8.0 or greater), two of my bala sharks got ich, and the PH dropped to 6.6 which is still good I think?


I added another dose of stress zyme, used another dose of ammo-lock, put ammo chips in my filter cartrige, put ich medication in the tank, did a 25-30% water change, and stopped feeding my fish (i only fed them once a day before).

The bala sharks ich cleared up completely in about 24 hours, but the bottle says keep treating them for 3 days after no symptoms are present. However the ammonia is still at around 8.0 (dark green on the ATI test kit). Nitrite levels are at 0 still.


My main questions are.. how do i get my ammonia level back down to a good level without killing the good bacteria in the tank? How long are you sopose to keep ammo-chips in the tank without changing/recharging them, and do they even work? And finally does anything that ive added to the tank medication/control wise kill good bacteria?

[BV77]

small water changes will remove some but not all the ammonia, or nitrite, or nitrate......leaving some for beneficial bacteria to start feeding on.

[locojay]

Welcome to fishforums

Sorry to hear about the fish you lost.

I'm still a little bit of a rookie compared to some people here but I'll take a shot at this one.

I'm guessing you haven't been changing the water very much since you've restarted the tank. Do you have tests for alkalinity (KH)? I bet it's low. When your KH drops your PH can start to swing. A PH of 6.6 isn't bad in itself (depeding on your fish) but the swing in the PH is real bad. Not only for your fish but your bacteria colony as well. If your bacteria colony is dying off then you would see a rise in the ammonia as it's not being proccessed anymore. I'd say waterchanges are definitely in order. Look for an LFS that sells biospira and use it instead of the stress zyme. If you can take back the 7 or 8 fish you just bought I would do so until your tank straightens out. But then again I'm not sure how that works if you have ich in your tank. That wouldn't be nice to give ich to your LFS.

What's your stocking list look like? To be honest with you, your tank isn't big enough for bala sharks.

As for ich treatment there's a recipe for treating it with salt that I think is better than using the meds, I'm not sure what it is but I'm sure someone will come along and help out with that one. But yes, no matter what treatment you use you should treat it for 2 weeks. Even if you havn't seen any ich in 10 days.

I don't really have any experience with the ammolock or ammo chips so we'll have to wait for another answer on that one too.

[DavidB86]

Well, before I was forced to redo the tank, I had two 12" bala sharks, 6" pleco, two 1" spotted danios, two 3" red-finned sharks, one 5" orange finned loach, one 6" pictus catfish, one 4" ghost catfish, and 2" emerald corey catfish. The tank did great for three years with only 25% water changes and monthly filter change for mait.

Currentally in the tank I have: two 3" bala sharks, one 3" pictus catfish, two emerald corey catfishs, 5 spotted danios, 3 ghost catfish, one 3" red-tail shark, and one 6" pleco. (I plan on getting a 100 gallon soon and fishless cycling it).


Taking the fish back isn't an option anymore (had them for more then two weeks).

I just did another test with test strips that I forgot I had, and the results were: GH = 120, KH = 0, PH between 6.0 and 6.5, Nitrite = 0.5, Nitrate = 0

Would having 0 KH be a cause for killing my bacteria and letting the ammonia rise? Whats a way that I can get it to rise?

[Sue Gremlin]

Sorry to hear about your problems.
What has happened in your tank is very predictable, and it seems that you have a partial understanding of the nitrogen cycle.
When you cleaned out your tank, you started back at zero, and needed to go through a whole new cycle. That was a mistake, you did not need to clean the tank out. Depending on your tank and what you do with it, that new cycle should take about six weeks.
By adding ammo lock and ammo chips, you're actually interfering with the nitrogen cycle, you need that ammonia to feed your bacterial populations. IT's toxic to your fish, yes, and that is why you need to strike a balance. It's very stressful to fish to be in your tank during the cycling process, that is why many people recommend cycling without the fish, but just using an artificial ammonia source.
To put it simply, there are two bacterial populations that need to develop: the ammonia-eating kind, and the nitrite-eating kind.
Adding more fish to your tank before the cycle was complete made your situation worse. That is not a surprise either. More fish = more ammonia.

It might be a good idea to return your new fish for now. Whether or not that is possible, stop adding ammo lock or stress zyme or ammo chips to the mix. Stress zyme says it contains the necessary bacteria, but it isn't exactly the right nitrogen fixing bacteria that exist in a healthy tank. You need to let those grow naturally. Do a partial water change until your ammonia levels drop appreciably. Do this whenever the ammonia levels creep up past 0.5-1ppm. The "good bacteria" don't live in the water itself, they colonize on the filter substrate, the gravel, the decorations, etc.
Test daily. When the ammonia levels drop, and they eventually will, test for nitrites. These will also spike after the ammonia. Again, as with ammonia, do water changes to keep the nitrites under control. Nitrites are also very toxic to fish. Eventually, (after a few weeks), the nitrites will drop, and it will be safe to add fish again.
And don't be tempted to mess much with the pH. Fighting with the pH all the time is a LOT more stressful on the fish than allowing them to adjust to whatever the pH of your tap water is. The pH tends to creep down, but if you do regular water changes, it will be okay.
When your cycle is complete, don't buy 7 fish at once, buy one or two at a time. This allows your bacterial populations to catch up with the extra ammonia in your tank. If you add fish slowly and test for nitrites, you'll be fine.
If you lose your fish during your cycling process, don't add more, you can add a shrimp or two to the tank, and the decomposition process will produce enough ammonia to get the tank started. Or you can just add some ammonia to the tank every day. In any case, you will need an ammonia source to keep the cycle going.
Adding all that stuff to your tank is a common thing, but the less stuff you add, the better. Nature will take over eventually, and messing with it just prolongs the process, and your fish suffer for it.
And never clean out your tank like that, not unless your fish died of some awful disease and the tank needs to be disinfected. That situation is very rare.
Good luck with your tank, and keep us posted!

[DavidB86]

Ok, thanks!

A few more questions: The tank smells really foul from about 5 feet away is that normal for cycling? The water has a slight grey tint to it (cloudyness), is that normal for cycling also?

Ill try just letting things sort out naturally. Ill keep an eye on everything, and cross my fingers that nothing dies. Is it a good idea to feed them every 2-3 days to keep the waste under control?


Also I think I might have to remove my pictus catfish later today because hes acting abnormal: breathing hard, very still, spurts of moderate swimming up and down the side of the tank from top to bottom. I have a fully cycled 10 gallon tank with a few other healthy fish in it, ill just throw him in there.

[Sue Gremlin]

Yes, tanks often get cloudy during the cycling process, or even after a really good cleaning. The cloudiness in and of itself probably isn't something to worry about, your main concern right now should be the ammonia and/or nitrite levels. The cloudiness is probably due to some bacteria bloom. What bacteria, who knows. It could be a lot of things. A lot is happening in that tank right now, and it will take a while before things settle down and you have a working mini-ecosystem.
You'll have to feed your fish, sure, and you can feed them every day, but just not enough so there's any food leftover.
As far as a smell, what's it smell like? You never know what sort of bacterial growth happens before things settle down. Tank chemistry can get pretty complicated!
You'll want to keep up on your water changes now more than ever. How's the ammonia level now? I see now that you had measurable nitrites. Is that still the same?

[Sue Gremlin]

Forgive me, for I have been out of the game for a while, I am learning a lot from this forum myself.
You can use a product called "Bio Spira" to speed up the cycling process. It is apparently the actual correct nitrogen-fixing bacteria that your tank needs. Might be a good idea since you have fish already, and if I were you, I would get some.
I just said there was no product that would speed up natural cycling, but I was apparently wrong!

[DavidB86]

I've been looking online for Bio Spira for about 30 minutes now.. the only site I found who sold it was www.drsfostersmith.com, and they are sold out of the 3 oz (90 gallon treatment) until febuary 02, 2007.

Anyone know any other sites that sell this product? It would be a big help!


Thanks.

[DavidB86]

Update: I moved some of the fish out to another tank that I have which is fully cycled and has 4 power filters running in it with plenty of slime on the filter cartridges (tank has been running for a few years). The tank is PH: 7.5, Ammonia: 0ppm, Nitrite: 0ppm

I took one of the slimey filter cartridges and replaced it with the one that is in the tank with bad ammonia. Hopefully that will start doing something real quick. Tank stats are PH: 6.5, Ammonia 8.0+ ppm, Nitrite: 0ppm

[TigerBarb12]

welcome to FF. You need to make a larger water change. 25%-30% isnt good enough, i usually change 50%-65% water change, my tanks are all fine. But its not your fault, some dumb lfs (local fish store) worker probably told you only change 25% of your water.

[locojay]

A KH of 0 is no good, but it will come up again as you do your water changes.

Keep looking for that biospira. I wish I knew of a place online, but I don't. Grab the yellowpages and start calling the LFS's in your area. Someone has to have it.

I think 100g is still too small for bala's. You'll probably want somwhere in the area of 150 for fullgrown bala sharks. You'll also need to add a few more ghost/glass catfish (Kryptopterus bicirrhis). They like to be in larger groups. Same with the cories, you want to have at least 6.

[DavidB86]

Update January 23rd: The slimey cartridge worked! Ammonia in the tank is still at 8.0+ ppm, however the nitrite is also now 3.0-4.0 ppm. PH still stands at 6.4.

I plan on doing a 50% water change later today, i filled up four 5 gallon water jugs with tap water and put conditioner in each of them. Waiting 24 hours to let it become room temp.

[emc7]

You need to change more water. The bacteria that eat ammonia can't live at 8 ppm, change 80% of the water to get it down below 2 ppm. The amount of bacteria in the water is small compared to the filters and high ammonia and nitrite levels will kill all your bacteria and you'll have to start all over again.

To get your kH up, add calcuim salts or limestone, but don't bother with it until you get your ammonia and nitrite under control.

[TigerBarb12]

yeah, you should do 75%-85% water change for a week, then move down once your ammonia is lower than about 2 ppm or 1.8 ppm. Lower water change to 60% and then when its at .5 ppm, lower water change to about 35%-45%.

[DavidB86]

been changing out 20-25 gallons of the 45 per day... ammonia still stays at 8.0 ppm reguardless of water changes, nirites go from 3.5ish ppm to .50 ppm after each water change.

I put some gravel from an established tank in a filter and dropped it in the tank, hope that does something even with the 8.0 ammonia

[locojay]

Have you tested your tap water for ammonia? I've never heard of tap water having a count that high but I do know some people (myself included) have ammonia coming from the tap. My tap water has an ammonia reading of 1.0 so for me daily water changes will keep my ammonia up no matter what I do. When I do a water change my ammonia goes from 0 to about .5 but goes back to zero in about 14 hours. If your tap water does have a high reading you might consider buying RO water.

[DavidB86]

I filled up four 5 gallon deer park water jugs, and tested three of them with just conditioned tap water after 24 hours.. two of them showed .5 ppm of ammonia and the last one showed .25 ppm. I just did another 50% water change today and the ammonia after the water change was still 6.0-8.0. Ill keep trying

[Sue Gremlin]

Your tap water showed .5ppm?

How old is the test kit you're using? Do your other tanks show ammonia levels?

[locojay]

Sue, it sounds like you doubt the tap water can have ammonia. I was shocked myself the first time I ran into it. Here's another recent post just to show it's not an isolated event. I've seen others here but I won't be able to search anymore until I get some coffee.

clickie