how often to change water in emergency

[ohiomary]

I suddenly have high nitrate and nitrite levels in my 29 gallon tank. Previously there wasn't any problem. I had a snail that died and I didn't notice it right away-so I don't know if that's what set it off or what. I think we've had this aquarium set up for a couple months. We have 4 Black Mollies, 1 Swordtail, 3 Platies, 2 Ghost Catfish, one Mystery Snail of normal size, one tiny baby snail, and 5 other fish fry of some sort that I haven't been able to identify yet.

I cleaned the tank yesterday--vacuuming the gravel, etc and added about 40% new water. I use a Stress Zyme and Stress Coat and aquarium salt.
Today the levels are still high. I removed about 20% of the water and replaced it, again adding Stress Zyme and Coat. Tonight the levels are still very very high, and at least one fish is acting lethargic.

Can I safely do another water change tonight or should I wait a day? I just don't know how long it takes for the tank to start to recover. I don't want to make it worse by putting new water in again so soon.

Thanks for any advice!

[emc7]

Nitrite poisoning is worse than most of the side effects of water changes. Go ahead and do what you need to to get the level down in the "safe" ranges.

[BV77]

I think if it were me, I'd do daily 25% changes till things mellow out......and the nitrite comes down......sounds like all that cleaning started a mini cycle for you. I'm not much for adding anything to my water, but if you want the stress coat and stress zyme, I suppose it's ok......dunno, never having used either.

[emc7]

If the first 40% water change didn't hurt your fish. Another one won't, no matter how soon after the first. Fish that are shocked by a water change are usually hurt by the first one in a long time.

[jones57742]

ohiomary

I will attempt to summarize the posts in this thread but if I have incorrectly done so other posters please modify.

• [1] the change is water parameters due to 40% to 50% WC's is not good.

• [2] a bunch of dead and/or dieing fish is obviously even very less good.

An item which has not been mentioned in this thread is the induction of activated carbon into the filtration process.

I do not believe that the employment of activated carbon in a typical filtration process but it has it uses although, IMHO, very limited.

Where I am coming from here is that

• [1] once I was having a meltdown of my bottom feeders.

• [2] WC's were producing no joy as my bottom feeders were still dieing.

• [3] In desperation I placed a jug (approximately one gallon) of activated carbon in a media bag and the media bag in my sump (note that the volume of the tank and sump is approximately 130 gallons).

• [4] Within 24 hours the surviving bottom dwellers were recovering.

TR

[emc7]

I can't see how carbon would help here as the issue of nitrite is known. I'd guess you had something toxic (some algae can release toxins or something toxic in the new water) that the carbon took out. There are some nitrite removing ion exchange resins that might help reduce nitrite (Nitra-sorb), the trade-off being a longer cycle. The larger and more frequent your water changes have been, the safer additional water changes are because the water in the tank is more similar to the water in the tap. Stresszyme is supposed to contain live bacteria. You might dilute the value of adding it with a water change, but I'd rather you buy more than have to buy new fish.

Since you are adding salt. It is important the new water have the same concentration of salt as the old. The problem with 20% water changes is they don't even dent a really high level. 3 20% changes won't do you as much good as one 50%.

Watch your fish. Lethargic can be a reaction to cold. If you have a fish die, change 50% of water and retest.

[jones57742]

emc:

I really do not have a clue either but doubtful if bottles of store purchased RO water would contain toxins (tried this after tap water failed).

I do not know that activated carbon will work in this situation but I do not know that it will not either.

TR

[lochness]

hi - need to ask some more specifics - you said you cleaned the tank - vacuumed gravel etc - What is the etc? What other cleaning did you do? what kind of filter are you using and which fish is lethargic? When you say *the tank has been set up for a couple of months* is it 2mos, 4mos or is it 6mos? I'm not a big fan of Stresscoat nor Stresszyme (I use Prime) but how much of it do you use and which water conditioner are you using in addition to those 2 products? I would recommend buying Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Conditioner in addition to those 2.

What is the ammonia reading? What kind of lighting do you use and how long is it on in a 24 hour period? What kind of substrate do you use and how thick is it?

I would stop doing water changes for now and do 25% in 2-3 days - by doing so many large water changes, you are slowing down the cycle needed to produce more beneficial bacteria and your readings will continue to be high in nitrites/nitrates. Also stop adding salt unless it is a brackish setup in which case add a bit less for now to speed up the cycle.

Is it a brackish setup or do you use just a pinch of aquarium salt? note: salt slows down the growth process of beneficial bacteria

[emc7]

Salt is a common recommendation for high nitrites. Its supposed to make them less toxic. The mollies will appreciate it and the platies and swords won't mind it at all. It might be bad for the snails, you'd have to look that up. Stresscoat does remove chlorine and chloramine so you don't need a second dechlor. I prefer Prime and Stability myself. IMO slime coat makers are overrated (you cause the fish to increase their slime coat by irritating them). But I don't see anything wrong with what shes doing.

[lochness]

Originally Posted by emc7

Salt is a common recommendation for high nitrites. Its supposed to make them less toxic. The mollies will appreciate it and the platies and swords won't mind it at all. It might be bad for the snails, you'd have to look that up. Stresscoat does remove chlorine and chloramine so you don't need a second dechlor. I prefer Prime and Stability myself. IMO slime coat makers are overrated (you cause the fish to increase their slime coat by irritating them). But I don't see anything wrong with what shes doing.

I never said salt was bad, I said it is slowing down the cycle needed to stabilize the tank. Actually, I'd stop using the Stresscoat altogether and replace it with the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Conditioner for the reasons emc7 mentioned.

More info is needed before more advice can be given.

[ohiomary]

wow, there is so much information in just this thread alone that I am overwhelmed! I'm still not sure what to do.
I will try to answer a couple of questions other posters have had and maybe that will help me find a clearer answer.

As far as when I cleaned the tank, I had been on a weekly cleaning schedule, vacuuming the gravel every week. The previous week I skipped the gravel cleaning and did a partial water change, maybe 20-25%. So this week, about the time I was thinking I needed to clean it, I noticed the nitrate and nitrate were high. I had lost one black molly a few days prior and then had one other molly that was acting lethargic. So I figured I'd better clean up and change the water quickly. I have a few ornamental things in there...I normally remove them just so I can vacuum the gravel very well. I also used an aquarium wipe to wipe down the inside a little. The filter intake was kind of gunked up so I cleaned it in the water I had removed from the tank. I put fresh water back in, mixing it with Stress Zyme and Stress Coat and salt.

I haven't used any other water conditioner-I thought that's what Stress Coat did....the salt I've used since the beginning because it was recommended for all of my fish. I know the snails may not like it but the one I have is huge and seems to be thriving. I have read that it will help when there's a nitrite problem.


The filter is a Penguin with a bio wheel. I've got maybe 1.5 inches of gravel in the bottom. I've had the tank set up for about 3 months. As far as lighting...I don't know what kind it is....it came with the aquarium and I haven't really thought about lighting being a problem. The room it's in gets some diffused natural sunlight. It's on the opposite side of the room from the window and it's not direct so I don't think it's too much sunlight. I have the aquarium light on about 8 hours in a day.

When I started this problem, Nitrite was at 5.0 and Nitrate was between 10-20. Ammonia was at 0. I use a testing kit where you compare vials of water to a card and it's hard to match them exactly. Today, after two water changes, Nitrite is at 1.0 and Nitrate is at 5, ammonia is still at 0. Do these numbers make sense? Obviously I'm new at this but I thought ammonia would have been higher. Does it seem like I'm on the right track with this?


Even after all this, there is still just the one molly that acts lethargic and the one that died a few days ago. The rest seem fine. This molly is a large black male where as all the other fish in the tank are quite a bit smaller. Do water problems affect larger fish earlier than smaller fish?

I'm not feeding the fish, except for putting crushed food in with the fry. Is it a good idea to hold off on food till I get things back under control?

With this additional information, any comments would be apprecitated.

Mary

[lochness]

withholding food is a bad idea - just feed enough that will be consumed in 3 min 3 times per day (their tummies are small) of a high quality brand - like omega, OSI, nutrafin - a serving of frozen brine shrimp packed with spirulina and a serving of frozen blood worms (3 times a week) - get the cubed kind so you don't have to guess how much to feed. Oh, and buy small containers of flake foods and pellets/wafers. Fish foods have a lifespan of about a month, after which they lose alot of their nutritional value. Food deficiency is one of the factors of fish getting weak or sick.

Have you checked your water source? Use the water testing kit on a sample of your water source before you condition it and see what the nitrites/nitrates readings are. My first guess is that your tank hasn't fully cycled, but I'd like some of the more experienced aquarists to reply here (esp the Mods). IMO 3 mos still equates to an immature tank tho this is arguable by some.

Fish require about 10-12 hours of light and your 1.5 inch of gravel is ok - I'm partial to 2-3 inches of gravel since it is a great source of nitrifying bacteria - and vacuuming the gravel doesn't interrupt this. As I said before, I suggest you switch from the Stresscoat to Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Tap Water Conditioner (same company).

Water parameters affect all fish - but the weaker fish or the fish who have a hard time adapting to sudden parameter changes suffer first.

I congratulate you on your diligent water changes and gravel vacuuming - once the tank is fully cycled, this routine will greatly increase the success of your hobby.

Incidentally, what's the temp of the aquarium?

If feasible, I also recommend you buy the Penguin 100 filter and enough ceramic rings to fill it with. Remove the filter cartridge that comes with the filter and simply pack it with the ceramic rings and run it that way - this will supply the tank with some added oxygen due to the additional water movement and a holding place for beneficial bacteria. The only thing you'd clean on this filter is the intake if it got too gunked up - other than that, leave it alone. With this setup, an added air pump and bubble wand isn't really needed.

[lochness]

Originally Posted by ohiomary

When I started this problem, Nitrite was at 5.0 and Nitrate was between 10-20. Ammonia was at 0. I use a testing kit where you compare vials of water to a card and it's hard to match them exactly. Today, after two water changes, Nitrite is at 1.0 and Nitrate is at 5, ammonia is still at 0. Do these numbers make sense? Obviously I'm new at this but I thought ammonia would have been higher. Does it seem like I'm on the right track with this?

Did you recently add fish prior to posting on the forums? 12 inhabitants and 5 fry seems to be alot for a system running for only 3 months.

Ammonia>nitrites>nitrates During the cycle each converts to the other so when you tested for ammonia it came back 0 but your nitrites tested high and your nitrates were high but still lower than nitrites because the cycle was still underway. You need to let it cycle FULLY to get your water parameters in check. This is why I mentioned the salt factor - it has slowed down the cycle. Keep doing 25-30% water changes daily.

[Obsidian]

Mary,
Personally I would keep doing what you have been doing in terms of water changes. You are making good headway in the nitrite department, and your ammonia being 0 is a good thing. 1.0 is still a bit high, but it's way better than 5.0 Patience and perseverance will pay off in this instance. With cycle issues time is a major factor as its a process to build the right bacterias.

Reducing food is good in a cycle issue, holding off on food all together is a bit extreme. I would feed them at least 1 time every other day, or smaller amounts once daily. Once your readings are back to normal you can resume normal feeding, however I would be watching carefully to see how much food hits the bottom. Ideally you would want them to eat all the food with none getting past them, however thats really hard to actually manage! You want to feed them just enough that you are as close to that ideal as possible. If you can turn your filter flow down sometimes that is a helpful thing to do during the 3-5 minutes they are feeding, because it will slow the fall rate of the food (but not all filters have a control for that, and I know nothing about penguins). I feed my fish 2 times daily, once for the top feeders and once for the bottom feeders (I Put that in at night as they are more active then).

Keep it up! I think you are on the right track.

[emc7]

Do water problems affect larger fish earlier than smaller fish?

Yes, ammonia burns the gills, the bigger fish use more oxygen making them more likely to succumb first. But even a non-fatal level of ammonia or nitrite can hurt your fish in the long run, so its good to keep them down with water changes.

I agree you tank is either still cycling or in a mini-cycle from the addition of new fish. The ammonia going down to 0 is normal and desirable, next you watch for the nitrite to go down.