A little problem with my Ph.

[df122]

Hey everyone. I recently did a complete water change on my tank and changed out the substrate and decorations. The tank had been running for about a year and a half prior to that but the substrate that we had was a petty ugly florescent yellow and at the urging of my wife ("urging" might be a mild way of putting it ) I finally had to beak down and change it so it looked a bit more presentable.

So off I went to redecorate my tank. I picked out some new substrate and few new decorations. So it's been about two weeks now since I set the tank back up. I've been doing partial water changes every 2 to 3 days in an effort to keep the ammonia levels down but I noticed that my Ph went from about 7.3 in the old set up to about 8.0. I started thinking about why this was happening then it occurred to me that I used crushed coral for the new substrate with out even realizing it. Is this the most likely reason for the elevated Ph or is it more so to do with the tank being new (new water that is)? Should I even be concerned with it being at 8.0 as it is fairly stable at that and if I should be concerned what should I do to correct it. I was thinking a small piece of drift wood might be enough to counter the evaluated Ph but I'm not sure that will work. I want to try to avoid using chemical fixes as the tank water is still cycling and I'm afraid that adding more chemicals will just stressing the fish and end up not being effective in the end.

Brief description of my set up:
20 gallon tank
3 goldfish (One Ryukin and two Oranda's)
Fluval 105 filter with Carbon, Ammonia Remover, polishing pad and Bio max.
and I'm not sure what else to tell ya.

Any help would be appreciated.

Oh one other question, I've been taking my ammonia readings and I've noticed that I can't seem to get them down even after partial water changes. I've read that using Ammonia removers such as the one I'm using in my filter can some times throw off your the test results. Is this true or am I just going through a regular tank set up problem with the ammonia spiking? As I mentioed about it's only been 2 weeks since I did a complete water change so while this is expected I am still a bit concerned.

[mousey]

your ph is just fine. Mine is 8.2 out of the tap and despite having lots of wood and plants in my tank it does not lower the ph very much. There would be some lowering with plants and wood and from the debris from plants,but not a huge amount.
My goldies are just fine in it.
Try cutting back on food for a few days til the ammonia comes under control. Goldfish seem to be always begging but you can feed daily or alternate days with no harm to them and in small amounts!!
Complete water changes are not too good for the tank I found out --they actually can cause a mini spike in ammonia at the best of times and since you are reALLY DOING A CYCLE AGAIN i WOULD JUST DO 25% EVERY SECOND DAY AS WELL AS USE EITHER Seachem PRIME or Ammo lock. Neither mess with the cycling process but do make it a bit more comfortable for the fish. If you can't get Prime throw a bit of aquarium salt in the tank when the nitrites spike. It helps the fish so that the Nitrogen does not go into the blood stream.

[COM]

Your ammonia levels are probably high because you have three fish that are producing a lot of waste in a small space and you don't have an adequate filter to handle it.

The short-term fix would be to upgrade to a more powerful filter.

[trashion]

A filter won't get rid of the ammonia. Only water changes can remove nitrogenous waste. 3 goldfish need MUCH more space than 20 gallons.

[COM]

Julie - agreed.

[df122]

Well as far as the filtration goes I thought the Fluval 105 canister filter was pretty good for a 20 gallon tank. I wasn't experiencing to many problems before once the tank had a chance to cycle. As for the tank I was just going by the pet stores recommendation to have 1 gallon per inch of fish. As it stands two of the gold fish, the Oranda's, are about 2 and half inches each and the Ryukin is a little under 2 inches. If I need more space though it's not that big of a problem. How large of a tank would you recommend?

I'm doing about 25% water changes every 2 days but I'm finding that even after the water changes the ammonia levels don't change at all. That's why I was wondering if perhaps there was something wrong with the test.

[COM]

For goldfish I would recommend as big a tank as you can afford and accommodate and a big powerful filter. Goldfish can grow extremely large. They're fun fish and easy to keep but they are "poop demons" as described in another post.

[trashion]

For 3 fancy goldies, I would recommend a 40 breeder(not a 40 tall) or larger. A 55 would be optimal. You'll see why. Just because the fish are tiny now means nothing. The "inch per gallon" rule is outdated and mostly useless, though it can provide a rough guideline...that is, if you consider the ADULT size of the fish and how wide and tall it is as well.

Everyone makes these mistakes. Just don't listen to fish store employees.

This pic oughta give you an idea of how big your fish can and will get:
http://cellar.org/2002/recordgoldfish.jpg

[df122]

Holy! Ok, i see your point.

[emc7]

Test kits will often show ammonia that is "detoxified" by conditioners such as Prime or Ammolock. The kits that do leave you no way to know if the ammonia you see will hurt your fish, but it is present. In a cycled tank, the ammonia should go away whether it its "detoxified" or not, becoming first nitrite and then nitrate.

If you are seeing ammonia, you are in a cycle, if only a mini one.

Take all the new tank precautions, add Prime or Ammo-lock, change water, and seed the filter media with bio-spira, stability, or media from an established tank.

Most likely it was something you did that disrupted you biological filtration and you need to rebuild it. However, it is possible for the bio-load a.k.a. fish to outgrow the filter's ability to remove their waste. When this happens you will have ammonia no matter what you do until you add another filter.

It can also happen if something has hurt the filter's ability to move water, such as a clogged filter cartridge, an impeller tied up in hair algae or crack in an intake tube.

[Obsidian]

Your PH is fine as long as it remains stable. However if you truly want to lower it in a natural way you can add peat moss to your filter. Fish like driftwood so adding that might help a bit as well

And definitely get a bigger tank as soon as you can. Oranda's are beautiful, and even more so when they start to get to their full size.

[Fishfirst]

pH adjustment will be fruitless... it just won't work with a crushed coral base, but don't be worried, goldfish like a higher pH and the added buffering should keep the pH STABLE which is the most important thing. I would never do a major "cleaning" like that again, you damaged your biological filtration and now you are seeing new tank syndrome. Lightly feed, do water changes, and possibly get some biospira or stability in there. Filter size will not matter much unfortunately because you don't have the necessary bacteria to convert the ammonia to nitrate.

[df122]

Well, I added the drift wood ad I have noticed a bit of a change in the Ph over the last week. It has dropped from about 8.0 - 8.2 to about 7.6 - 7.8.

As for the ammonia levels they are beginning to drop but I guess that was to be expected as my tank is beginning to cycle. I'm keeping up with a 25% water change every 2 days and have cut down on the food a bit too.

I'm currently using bio-max in my filter but there really isn't much room for lots of it. I can only squeeze about 10 or 15 of those rings into the basket that comes with the filter. Should I ditch the basket and add more bio-max? The only thing below the bio-max at the moment is a polishing pad so I would have more room if I got ride of it. Oh and when I'm cleaning my filter does it hurt the bio-max when I pull it out of the water? I don't rinse it off or anything but I was concerned with taking it out of the water.

I looked every where for Bio-spira but I don't think I can get it here. Are there any other products available?

[emc7]

Stability is slower, but doesn't need refrigeration, so its more available.

[mousey]

I wouldn't ditch the basket.
I used a fluval 103 on my 20 gal community tank. Do you have 4 foam filter pads in the filter? They also hold bacteria. Where you have the plain beads for separating the debris out first I also stuck in a thin fiber pad too. There is lots of places for the bacteria to hide-- even up on the walls of the tubing, all over the gravel surfaces and on the glass side walls.
It will not hurt the bacteria to be out of the filter/water for a few minutes. When you wash the junk off the foam pads just rinse them in the old tank water-- never tapwater!!
Rinse the bio max beads off in old tank water too-- it will wash out some more junk as well as any bacteria that have died and gone to the great beyond.
Do not be too clean in the tank!! Ie if cleaning the gravel really well don't do the filter the same week and vice versa. I learned that the hard way and put my tank thru another cycle!