new tank in trouble?

[mousey]

My girl friend has just started fish keeping with a 5 gal tank. She went from a 2 1/2 gal to present size where she had 2 guppies i gave her plus a betta and put them into the 5 gal. Against my advice she went to big Al's and bought 2 zebra fish and put them into the tank. Within 3 days the zebras were dead and the betta was bleeding thru the gills.
the guppies had fin and tail rot.
we went back to Big Al's and got $79 worth of supplies and antibiotics.
They tested the water and said she had high ammonia. this did not really sound right to me 3 days after the tank was started, but what do i know anyway?(I have 3 thriving tanks and 5 bettas)
Told her to use ammo lock ,put in ammonia chips, treat the tank for infection. Add charcoal to remove antibiotic when treatment done and do a small water change-- do not disturb gravel. well it is two weeks later and she continues to show high ammonia and 0 nitrites. guppies are doing well except tails are not yet re growing.
Questions.
the antibiotic said it would not kill off the bacteria. i am wondering if it did?
would the ammonia chips stop the cycling process? they shoudn't should they?
I get the distinct immpression she does not understand much of what I am telling her! I have printed out tons of info for her on cycling as well as what water to use etc etc. she did ok with the betta and guppies originally in the 2 1/2 gal and only did water changes every 3-4 weeks. The problems started after she added the fish from the lfs.
She even has a bunch of my plants to try to speed the cycling but according to her nothing is happening in the tank. i would have expected to see a bit of nitrites by now.
Any ideas??
Mouse

[mr.dark-saint]

2 1/2 gallon to 5 gallon isn't much of a leap (sure it's double the size) but for the money she shelled out $79 bucks for the meds she could've gotten a better system.

First off I'll figure too many fish too quickly and the amonia killed everything that wasn't sick. The reason for high ammonia is from the deaths from decomposition of fish in a small new system.

As for Ammo-loc and chips that would just retard the cycle like doing water change mid-cycling. And the plants will not speed up the process either unless it's dying.

Antibiotic's main reason for existing is to prevent bacteria from blooming depends on the type gram negative or positive.

The Nitrite/Nitrate not being visible "yet" is for most parts it is a sterile tank from the meds.

I take it "Big Al's" didn't offer her a book on fish keeping?

[Fishfirst]

wow... $79 for crud? Ammo-loc would have been my LAST choice in combating ammonia. They didn't offer bio-spira? what about stability? A nice big water change and adding one of these two products should do the trick. Final cost - 4-8 bucks. What ticks me off the most is that they didn't even think of the fact that the ammo-loc is going to screw up their test results. Thats why your guppies aren't dead (the ammo-loc changes ammonia into a non toxic form, BUT it is still read as ammonia on the test). As for meds, better water quality is the solution to your problem, not medication or crudtastic ammoloc. Too much too soon in WAY too small of a tank is what put the ammonia high in the tank she's got, plus for 79 dollars she could have had a 20 gallon and a full stock of healthy fish.
I'd go and complain to big al's, 79 dollars of junk, what a joke.

[euRasian32]

Hopefully, she won't get discouraged and give up, AND the equipment she got can be used on a 10 gallon too.

Personally, I'd start over. Controlling/curing an infection in a small set up is hard work.

You should devise a daily step by step worksheet, or you could utilize one of your filter pads to help kickstart her bacteria (highly recommended).

Keep us posted.

[mousey]

I have to tell you that we do not get biospira here in ontario, canada, so unfortunately that is not possible!
I like Ammo lock and yes I agree it still measures positive ammonia on the tests. . I use Ammo lock to condition my water and have been for 3 years now with no problems. With the chloramines you have to use an ammonia neutralizer after the other types of water conditioners anyway.
the thing that ticks me off is that the antibiotics(erythromycin) stated on the package that they would not kill the biological filter. I did have my doubts but she was between a rock and a hard place.
As far as I know she got the first dead fish out when she found it and removed the second when i told her to get the sick thing out of her tank.

Big Al's told her that she could not put guppies in with bettas( phooey)and that bettas were best kept in a small bowl! however they did sell her danios to go with her betta!! Every thing I told her to do was contradicted by the Big Al's staff.
i recommended she buy a bigger tank-- minimum 10 gal but she said she did not have the room. She used old gravel from the 2 1/2 gal. By the way she spent $29 for the 2/1/2 setup. I would have given her a 2 gal pickle jar for free! The 5 gal set up cost $69.
I hope she is not discouraged too. She will enjoy her little bettas and guppies once she gets over the hurdle.
i have told her to just keep 2 guppies in the tank until it cycles.
how do those ammo chips work?

[fishboy]

you want bio-spira Here this is a link i think for small businesses and you might have to buy in bulk but bio-spiras always usefull
http://www.marineland.com/products/m...L_biospira.asp
The shipping might be alittle more to Canada but hey you've spent alot ot keep this operation going so what'd ya got to lose?

[euRasian32]

It's good that she used the gravel from the previous tank, but I'm not sure if you stated that the 2 and 1/2 was fully established. Again, she'd have better success if she used some of your established bacteria from your biological filter.

Ammo chips are placed in your filters tray or compartment for chemical media, if applicable. Just like activated carbon.

[Fishfirst]

I would like to comment on the ammo-loc again. Established systems are a lot different than the beginning woas of a tank. Ammo-loc is crud when it is used during the cycle, basically an emergancy effort to make the fish comfortable until you have time to do a massive water change or get a product like stability or bio-spira. Stability can be found at all petsmarts if you have one in canada??? I would just use aquasafe (its rumored to break down chloromine safely without the ammonia production) or start right while cycling a tank. That way ammonia can still be monitored and kept in check. Ammo lock when used on an established system can be a safety net if something goes wrong like a fish dies and you can't find it in the tank.

[mousey]

well today she went to Big Al's and they told her to do a 25% water change every 3 days .I gave her a very aged filter pad and told her not to touch anything in the tank. We tested the h2o and the ammonia IS over 8 !! yikes.It is ammo locked!
She has been adding some junk to bring down her ph (someone at petsmart sold her this), she has been scrubbing her mopani wood!! because it makes the water brown.
i told her to leave all the algae alone as she wants to scrub that out too as "the tank looks messy"

I could scream!!
I told her to just let every thing be until the whole process is over and then we will adress the other issues like algae.
her tap ph is 7.2. I would kill for a low reading like that.she has also been trying to get it lower as petsmart told her the lower the better!
My ph is 8.5 - 9 out of the tap and i live in a town only 4 miles away.
Most tanks i have cycled go thru the cycling process without a hitch. my son's tank went thru ok despite him throwing 3 small goldies into a 20 gal and him doing nothing to the water other than waiting 6 weeks.
I think that everything being equal she is fiddling too much.
mouse

[Thunderkiss]

More water changes, less food. feed them every 3-4 days or so til the ammonia starts to go down a lot more than it is.
Her pH is fine, leave it be. Scrubbing the wood will avail her nothing, as thats what driftwood does in water. No harm no foul, it will just soften her water a bit and lower the pH some. As such she should do slightly smaller water changes more frequently so as no to stress the fish.
As for the algae, if you have access to aqua-glo lites, switch em out to that or any oher plant oriented light. Feed less and do more frequent water changes to keep the nutrient level down.

The drawbacks of having small tanks.

Instability

[mousey]

well, with my well established filter pad the ammonia started to go down in 3 days and the nitrites are slowly climbing. She has one little guppy left.
I have given her strict instructions not to add any more fish until she gets 0 readings on our nitites and ammonia.
Hopefully she will get thru this ok.
mouse

[Chazwick]

If the betta is a male, are you sure the guppies don't have fin rot - but instead are not getting attacked. Male Bettas DO NOT GET ALONG UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, UNLESS YOU HAVE A BIG TANK with guppies, because they see them as competition.

[mousey]

I think it is attack damage too! Her new betta is more mild tempered and hasn't bothered the guppies. YET. her tank is now fully cycled and doing well.