need help setting up reef tank

[neb123]

Hi, I am interested in setting up a reef tank and I have never kept salt water before, i have kept many freshwater tanks succesfully and i think its time to step it up,
I want to set up a 40-50 gallon tank, preferably reef
therefore my first question is should i start out with a basic salt water tank with artificial decorations before i move up to reef tanks or would it be alright to go straight to reef, i do not mind putting a lot of time into this tank

i have been doing research and i guess i should list my plans for the tank first

reef tank with some inverts like anenomes, sponges, fan worms etc
- 1-2 clowns
- basslet
- damsels
- cardinals
- chromis
- gobies
- dragonet (if possible)

ive beeng looking at compatibility charts and it looks like these fish should all do well together, now on to questions
i plan on getting an eclipse system for whatever size tank i get, and i was planning on changing the lights to a higher wattage
would 4-5 wpg be sufficient for this set up?
and does anyone have any comments about the eclipse systems, are they good or bad for saltwater?
will i need a protein skimmer, if so what size?
how much live rock will i need to set up a well established 40-50 gal tank?
any suggestions about live sand?
what kind of reef care/vitamins/supplements will i need to invest in?
and what test kits will i need?

i think thats it, is there anything else i missed or would need to get? thanks for the help

[Fishfirst]

Welcome to the awesome world of Saltwater Aquariums... Lets start with filteration
Protein Skimmer and Live rock is the way to go. There are not many choices on the sizes of protein skimmers (at least compared to freshwater filters). If you go the cheap route for skimming, go with prisms or backpacks and go with one that is for 100 gallons or better.
If you go the expensive route I believe the remora has a good reputation. Also I'd get at least a 4 inch sand bed for good filteration. 50-75 lbs is a good amount of live rock.
Lighting - you'll probably want compact florecents or halides 4-5 wpg works for most corals and anemones.
Suppliments for corals and anemones should be iodine strondium and calcium.
You will need test kits for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, phosphates, calcium, pH, alkalinity, hardness

I would also cut the damsels from your list they tend to get aggressive and drab as they get larger.

[TheOldSalt]

I'm glad to see that you've been researching first, and juding by your list, it sounds like you've been learning.

Lose the damsels and forget the dragonets. Anemones are a no-go as well, except for the little ones that come in on live rock.

The Eclipse hood is not very good. It sticks, you see.

Your live sand will be a lot more efficient if it's only 1.5
- 2 inches deep over a plenum.

If you really want the system to work very well, be low-maintenance, support your corals much better and even support dragonets, look into the ecosystem style of filtration. It's foolproof.

[clemsonfrk11202]

why lose the Anemones? generally speaking they arent to hard to take care of and when they find a good place in the tank they dont really wander too much

[Fishfirst]

I agree with theoldsalt on the Eclipse hood. Anemones are a go in an established tank with enough lighting, and the dragonet CAN be supported with a refugium and a good population of pods. A deep sand bed is better than a shallow one.

[clemsonfrk11202]

i agree with fishfirst deeper=better, and i would definately wait at least a year after the tank has been established before the dragonet, most die of starvation because people buy them in a new tank before their coepod population has increased to a substantial number.

[clemsonfrk11202]

i agree with fishfirst deeper=better, and i would definately wait at least a year after the tank has been established before the dragonet, most die of starvation because people buy them in a new tank before their coepod population has increased to a substantial number.

[TheOldSalt]

Deeper is not better.
It is popular, but not better by a longshot.

Denitrification only occurs in the top 1.5 or so inches of the sand bed. Deeper than that, and instead you get reduction. As the toxins produced by this work their way back up into the top layer again, they are again nitrified and then denitrified, but not all of them are. Some work their way back down again to start all over, and some escape back into the water column.

This is grossly inefficient, and while not particularly dangerous unless something stirs up the deep sand bed, it's still inherently less safe.

Deep sand beds--> cost more, work less effectively, take up volume in the tank, and are risky.

Shallow beds with plenum--> Cost less, take up less volume, pose no risk, are vastly more efficient.

LOSE THE ANEMONES. They do not belong in a new tank, nor in the tank of a beginner. They are practically immortal in the open sea, but they generally don't last a year in the aquarium unless kept under exemplary conditions. they are slow to reroduce, and their numbers are being seriously depleted in the wild due to overcollecting. Don't become part of the problem which could lead to them becoming illegal to import. If we don't regulate ourselves, somebody else will do it for us, and we won't like it when that happens.

[Fishfirst]

if deep sand beds are so risky... I guess our oceans are in trouble... they've got a huge deep sand bed..........

[TheOldSalt]

And trillions of gallons of water over it. In fact, when one looks at the entire ocean floor, the area covered by live sand beds is very miniscule indeed. The natural inefficiency is compensated for by sheer volume.
Most of the sea floor is hard packed by pressure and also too cold to be of much use, and when one considers the sea volume-to-livesandbed ratio, it's almost like what you would get by putting a very small refugium on the back of a very big tank. However, it's obviously enough, and that's good, because it lets our refugiums work just fine.

Deep sand beds do work well enough for most applications, and I'm not saying they don't. I'm just saying that they don't work as well as the alternatives of plenums and ecosystem filters.


Getting back on subject...
In head-to-head comparisons, the ecosystem method outperforms all other methods by a very impressive margin. If the guy who started this thread is really serious about making his reef a success, he should really look into this method and do things right the first time.

[neb123]

thanks for all your help guys! ive been doing more research and i think i would feel more comfertable starting with a fish only tank and gaining some experience with that before i move up to reef tanks, i think i will be looking into a 55gal long, if youd like to help me out some more i got another post going about filters and protein skimmers, any help would be appreciated thanks http://www.fishforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1640