thoughts of mine. . . . .

[Damon]

I'd agree Morris. Its comparing addition to calculus. They are both math but one requires much more thought and knowledge. Having a reef, planted tank, and freshwater I can say without a doubt that saltwater is more difficult. Water chemistry is a lot different, mistakes are more costly and overall its more time consuming. Ich in a fw tank is easy. Ich in a sw tank will ruin it to the point you may have to leave it fallow for months. Development of coralline algae alone takes months. Filtration is completely different. And breeding is not nearly as easy. While I'm not saying a beginner cant do saltwater, it is a much larger undertaking with a better possibility of failure without basic fishkeeping knowledge and with that still very possible.

[fishfingers]

Lol I'm not making any friends am I. Damon has said the reasons why I would do saltwater first without doing freshwater. Except for the most costly and time comsuming bit, remember we are talking about a tank with LR, sofities and light! Basically all you would need to worry about is salinity, lighting levels and iodine to some extent. I don't think freshwater is a good learning step to get when you get saltwater coz almost everything is looked upon from a different perspective. New people to the hobby start of researching FW, so why can't they just reasearch SW in the first place and start there. As I said your typical newbie mistake wouldn't be too much of a problem in the tank described so I don't see why you would need a FW tank to make all your mistakes on. It's like walking from A to B to C if you only need to go from A to C.

I would think there would be just as many parameters needed watching in a planted tank than a simple fishless softie tank anyway? From the way I've seen them I'd rather run an SPS tank anyday before going planted.

[harif87]

Originally Posted by fishfingers Lol I'm not making any friends am I. remember we are talking about a tank with LR, sofities and light! Basically all you would need to worry about is salinity, lighting levels and iodine to some extent.

No fish? Surely begginers want to have "nemo" in their tank.
Ammonia/nitrate levels need to be monitered along with phosphates and other nutrients to prevent algae blooms. You dont need to have fish in the tank to have high nutrient levels. All that good stuff can come straight from the tap.

Also id like to point out that you just contradicted yourself a bit by saying this. Your saying that there is nothing to keeping Sw the way you just described it. It sounds like a FW tank just with some salt in the water.... in that case why even mention the given scenario? I mean you should be all for begginers keeping hard to keep species like certain pipefish, cephlapods, butterflyfish etc....

I don't think freshwater is a good learning step to get when you get saltwater coz almost everything is looked upon from a different perspective.

And what perspective is that? I myself dont see it in any different perspective than i do my reeftank.




Id also like to say that your theoretical thinking (which is appreciated) doesnt agree with reality. The reality is that there have been countless people who jump into SW and end up having to tear down their tanks. Go to craigslist.org.. where do you think the deals on SW equipment and livestock are comming? Not from the experienced reefer who wants to give out deals at his own expense, but by those people who have failed. Its not an easy hobby at the begginer level and im sure hundreds of people can testify.

[Fishboy93]

Seeing as though im in this exact situation, Im a little overwhelmed even though i've done most of what you can do with freshwater(Natives, Planted, Community, breeders) IME it seems like doing freshwater first has helped me gain experiance and how to react to certain situations. Just my 2 cents..

[TheOldSalt]

What's with all this promotion of softfies in a 10 gallon tank? The beginner isn't going to maintain the tank correctly, and those things DEMAND proper care or they'll foul the whole tank with their exudations.
Fishfingers, College reefer, it's fine that you two are doing everything right and having good success, but please don't let me catch you ever again encouraging nanoreefing to noobs. That is grossly irresponsible on many levels, and I'm sick of it.

[247Plants]

I would think there would be just as many parameters needed watching in a planted tank than a simple fishless softie tank anyway? From the way I've seen them I'd rather run an SPS tank anyday before going planted.

having 3 planted tanks and being in the freshwater end of things, all I can say here is if my plants arent happy they wont kill each other or foul the tank horribly to the point of killing the whole tank. You are right there are lots of params to watch on a high tech tank but I can let mine slip for a bit and come back and dial it in and be back 100% within a week or two with the same stock generally.

No fish? Surely begginers want to have "nemo" in their tank.

I have yet to have a saltwater tank, but when I do I would be perfectly happy with a invert/coral tank as a beginner. Then again I wouldnt start off with a 10 gallon.

[fishfingers]

Yeah ok, this is just going around in circles. But I still stand by what I've said, and I'd tell people it again. Remember I'm only trying to give information to people based on my opinions and experiences. Its not like I lurk the forums preying on newbies with the aim of destroying their tanks in mind. I knew my opinion on this topic wouldn't be popular, but at least there are two different opinions out there now.

Tis been a fun discussion though...

[harif87]

Originally Posted by fishfingers Yeah ok, this is just going around in circles. But I still stand by what I've said, and I'd tell people it again. Remember I'm only trying to give information to people based on my opinions and experiences. Its not like I lurk the forums preying on newbies with the aim of destroying their tanks in mind. I knew my opinion on this topic wouldn't be popular, but at least there are two different opinions out there now. Tis been a fun discussion though...

And of course were just voicing our experiences and opinions as well.

To each their own

[Reefneck]

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt What's with all this promotion of softfies in a 10 gallon tank? The beginner isn't going to maintain the tank correctly, and those things DEMAND proper care or they'll foul the whole tank with their exudations. Fishfingers, College reefer, it's fine that you two are doing everything right and having good success, but please don't let me catch you ever again encouraging nanoreefing to noobs. That is grossly irresponsible on many levels, and I'm sick of it.

I could not agree any more with these statements!

I have kept my mouth shut in this thread so far, biting my tounge hard. Now my tounge started bleeding so I had to speak up when I saw what I feel to be "facts"! posted.

Great, Now some of you will hate me.

[Fishboy93]

Originally Posted by Reefneck I could not agree any more with these statements! I have kept my mouth shut in this thread so far, biting my tounge hard. Now my tounge started bleeding so I had to speak up when I saw what I feel to be "facts"! posted. Great, Now some of you will hate me.

I think people should be respecting you for biting your tongue, seeing as though you do have a thing against nano tanks(as do most experienced reefers when refering to noobs) and your experianced so...

[Kyoberr]

Originally Posted by Scuba Kid They are when people dont have the knowledge and experience of basic fish keeping.

How do you know that this person doesn't have basic knowledge about fish keeping?!? They probably know what they are doing, experience is a good thing to have though, so if you read enough about it and took good care of it, then you could probably do it.

Nothing is impossible.

Originally Posted by Kyoberr How do you know that this person doesn't have basic knowledge about fish keeping?!? They probably know what they are doing, experience is a good thing to have though, so if you read enough about it and took good care of it, then you could probably do it. Nothing is impossible.

I know he does not have much experience in fishkeeping because I know who this member is and recall their previous posts and questions from no-to-long ago.

By the way, reading does not gain you experience.
How long have you been keeping saltwater, Kyoberr?

[CollegeReefer]

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt What's with all this promotion of softfies in a 10 gallon tank? The beginner isn't going to maintain the tank correctly, and those things DEMAND proper care or they'll foul the whole tank with their exudations. Fishfingers, College reefer, it's fine that you two are doing everything right and having good success, but please don't let me catch you ever again encouraging nanoreefing to noobs. That is grossly irresponsible on many levels, and I'm sick of it.

Its not like i promote it, i just say it can be done and can be done with sucess. Makeing a 10 gallon softy tank with a CUC would be a nice nano tank with a little work and time. I being a noob when i started my nano with great sucess will give support to those who seek to start a tank smaller then 50 gallons. I will and always have told them that it is easier to start with a bigger tank, but with a little extra work and time can have sucess with a smaller tank. That is all i have to say. If the starter of this thread would like to get help i will provide it, and if he isn't comfortable posting on the thread he started, he can always pm me or email me.

[fishfingers]

Originally Posted by harif87 And of course were just voicing our experiences and opinions as well. To each their own

Yep I realise and respect that.

CollegeReefer you basically summed up my orginal point in your last post. I think I might of gotten a bit caught up in the swing of things trying to defend my position, but thats basically what I was trying to say.

[Damon]

Originally Posted by fishfingers Yep I realise and respect that. CollegeReefer you basically summed up my orginal point in your last post. I think I might of gotten a bit caught up in the swing of things trying to defend my position, but thats basically what I was trying to say.

And we do understand you point of view, but I believe you 2 are missing the bigger picture T.O.S. touched on without actually saying it.

It IS possible to do it. But the % of failure is A LOT higher. A lot of corals are still harvested which depletes the ocean. To encourage a new reefer (whether or not you believe you are) is not healthy to our environment. Our natural reefs are being depleted already let alone to risk the lives of these animals because one doesn't want to give their tank the best possible chance of success. It would be great if everyone succeeded but thats just not possible. Why increase the chances of killing the animals if you dont have to?