thoughts of mine. . . . .

[CollegeReefer]

Originally Posted by Damon

There is know about liverock placement, waterflow importance for different types of corals, fish who will or will not nip at corals, coral placement, what to look for when purchasing a coral, how to treat a sw tank (different than fw), hitchhikers than can arrive and if they are good or bad. I could go on but you know this stuff already................

Again I'm not saying it cant be done. Its just much harder.........

And for every 1 person you know that started with a nano and it thrived, I can list 10 who failed..........

You need to know the same thing for a larger tank though as well.

FishFingers,

My first and only tank is my aquapod 24 which is still considered as a nano tank.

[TheOldSalt]

*sigh*

The thing you are forgetting though, is that larger tanks have the inherent quality of having a lot more room for error in them. They are safer by far than small ones, and beginners have no business doing anything unsafe since they'll have enough problems.
As for your snappy comeback to Damon, yes, you do have to know these things for both large and small tanks. However, in a larger tank you actually have room to put that info to actual USE. Coral placement factors of flow and lighting/height are vastly easier to account for in a tank with some room in it. Wit nanos, you're just stuck with what you've got pretty uniformly throughout the tank. Corals fight, too, and exude, and spacing them correctly is again a lot easier if you have the space.
A nano limits your ability to do things correctly, plain and simple. You can do things acceptably well in a small tank, of course, but your choices will be greatly limited as a result, since fewer species can work together well in such close quarters. So yes, if you limit your selections to such species, and if you know what their specific needs are, and if you take the time to place them correctly to meet those needs, then you can succeed with a nano tank nearly effortlessly.
So, then...how many beginners are going to know these things? Not many.

I'm sick of this recurring argument. Nanos and novices do not mix. Period. There are exceptions to every rule, sure, but there's a very good reason that they are rules in the first place.

[CollegeReefer]

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt

A nano limits your ability to do things correctly, plain and simple. You can do things acceptably well in a small tank, of course, but your choices will be greatly limited as a result, since fewer species can work together well in such close quarters. So yes, if you limit your selections to such species, and if you know what their specific needs are, and if you take the time to place them correctly to meet those needs, then you can succeed with a nano tank nearly effortlessly.
So, then...how many beginners are going to know these things? Not many.

So why not take your experience and help those who want to start a nano tank. Spread the word of what they can and can not have in the nano tank. Show them what corals need to be seperate from others. Tell them what fish are appropiate for a nano tank. If they come looking for awnsers they are showing that they want to know these things so they can be successfull. And as you stated above, if the begginer knows what species, specific needs, and takes the time to place the coral they "can succeed with a nano tank nearly effortlessly." And this of course is my belief. Never thought I would hear you say that.

[leveldrummer]

it took you about 2 minutes to type that, and that is all that is needed for a noob that wants to set up a nano, i just have a real problem with how everyone here makes salt water sound like rocket science, it is a little bit more involved, but like damon said, if you want to learn, it can be done, people show up here all the time from freshwater ( i did it myself not too long ago!) and ask how to transfer everything, and for me... learning all the differences were much harder than just learning salt in the first place would have been.

its much easier to say "nano's are impossible for a noob, dont do it" then to say " just make sure you stock it right"
if any of you arent interested in walking people through setting up a nano, then why are you even on this site? you obviously dont have questions yourself, so if your not willing to help with something that is obviously effortless, than you must be here to show off or brag about something. it dont make sense.

i think it would make much more sense to start with a nano, you end up putting 60$ worth of coral and fish in it, and if it crashes... so what? now if you start with a 75, and drop about 2000 grand in coral and fish and it crashes, your probably gonna quit the hobby. its not the size of the tank that causes a crash, its the mistakes that people make, and crashing a nano isnt near as big of a deal as crashing a big tank. and if they do crash it, (which may or may NOT be more likely) at least they arent pawning their car title to get it back up.

[leveldrummer]

pevine, im very sorry this discussion has totally hijacked your thread, you had a very valid question, and you probably dont even check it anymore simply because everyone scared you away.

[TheOldSalt]

"...i think it would make much more sense to start with a nano, you end up putting 60$ worth of coral and fish in it, and if it crashes... so what?..."

There. Right there. THAT is the very reason I don't bother helping people like you. Why cast pearls before cheapskate swine who will promptly ignore any advice given and do whatever is seemingly cheapest and easiest, since it doesn't really matter to them anyway?

"...its not the size of the tank that causes a crash, its the mistakes that people make, and crashing a nano isnt near as big of a deal as crashing a big tank...."

Oh. I BEG to differ.
First of all, those mistakes are easily absorbed and rendered safer in a bigger tank, which means that making a nanoreef is only the first of those mistakes.
Next, I'm sure all the dead nanoreef critters will be happy to know that their demises aren't a big deal. Of course, when you consider that for every big tank set up correctly there are several dozen little glass coffins all adding to the compounded slaughter, it suddenly becomes quite clear why nanoreefing among noobs must be discouraged, NOT encouraged. The allure of nanoreefing is very strong, and it attracts a lot of people who don't care if the animals live or die so long as it isn't expensive, and since it isn't expensive, they don't take enough time to do things properly, thereby snowballing the problem. People who just slap a nanoreef together, thinking it's going to be simplicity itself because they read on the internet that it is, and because it's cheaper, are the ones who quit the most, having had no real investment in their systems and also because they of course FAIL the most. A few people doing it right have a much lower environmental impact than hordes doing it wrong. ( or hordes doing it right, for that matter )

NOW do you see why I'm so against nanos for noobs, and the promotion of same?

There ARE several groups working very hard to shut this hobby down completely, and one of these days, if this trend continues, they are going to have enough evidence, in the form of failure rates, to put a serious hurting on us. Again. We MUST do what we can to prevent those failures, and while education and training are ideally very useful tools for that, your own attitude demonstrates why they alone won't work.

Oh, and finally, while I'm on a roll, all fishkeeping is the same. The big differences between fresh and salt are artificial and all in your mind. It's simply a matter of range. All the same things happen, but in different ways in different ranges, which means that learning to keep one type really does help you learn how to keep another. You are looking at fresh and salt as two completely different things, when in fact they are not different at all. Once you get past that you'll understand the flaws of your argument. The only extra things you have to learn when switching from one to the other are those few little ways the same processes are carried out differently, and how to account for them in practice. Piece of cake.

[CollegeReefer]

Originally Posted by leveldrummer

i think it would make much more sense to start with a nano, you end up putting 60$ worth of coral and fish in it, and if it crashes... so what? now if you start with a 75, and drop about 2000 grand in coral and fish and it crashes, your probably gonna quit the hobby. its not the size of the tank that causes a crash, its the mistakes that people make, and crashing a nano isnt near as big of a deal as crashing a big tank. and if they do crash it, (which may or may NOT be more likely) at least they arent pawning their car title to get it back up.

I am not with you on this one leveldrummer. I hate it when someones tank crashes because they don't do what they need to do to keep it going. I also don't like the idea of shrugging off the loss of life. When it comes to tank size, a small mistake in a small tank can cause the tank to crash where as in the larger tank the mistake will be almost unoticed. I have have a 20 gallon, 40 gallon and a 75 gallon and i will admidt that my nano is more work, but i love putting in the work. I check the parameters almost everyday. Add ro/di water everyday. I spend a lot more time with the 20 gallon then the other tanks.

[Damon]

Originally Posted by CollegeReefer

I am not with you on this one leveldrummer. I hate it when someones tank crashes because they don't do what they need to do to keep it going. I also don't like the idea of shrugging off the loss of life. When it comes to tank size, a small mistake in a small tank can cause the tank to crash where as in the larger tank the mistake will be almost unoticed. I have have a 20 gallon, 40 gallon and a 75 gallon and i will admidt that my nano is more work, but i love putting in the work. I check the parameters almost everyday. Add ro/di water everyday. I spend a lot more time with the 20 gallon then the other tanks.

Ahh.... Refreshing.

[Fishfirst]

I think that nanos should not be encouraged to people who haven't had fish before, or people who haven't had fish for very long, or for people who have had freshwater but have never had saltwater. Everyday at work, I meet someone who wants a nano tank, but has no clue how to even mix the salt. Now I'm not saying that with some good research, hard work, and a good forum like this one to help someone along, that it can't be done successfully... but I think most newbies don't want to take the time to do these things, nor have the motivation.
At work, even talking about mixing salt turns people away from getting a saltwater tank... the average newbie wants to take as little time learning as possible. So WHY encourage it? WHY promote it? There isn't a good reason besides having that 1 in 20 newbie who actually cares about the fish and does well, and THAT is the newbie who will take advise and get a larger tank to start with, OR get the largest possible tank he/she can afford even if it may be a little small on the gallonage side of things. These people with the "great idea" of "going saltwater" don't even recognize half the time that these fish are being harvested from the ocean, much less understand the nitrogen cycle, FISHKEEPING 101 here!!!!

I would like to say that we on fishforums have a responsibility to discourage people from doing a nano tank... at least at first. BUT if someone does still wants a nano tank after a few posts discouraging it, and they are willing to put in the time to research and work... we must do our best to set them up the right way, and do everything we can to help them. Lets try not to debate whether a nano is a good idea anymore, because the truth is... it isn't a good idea for most folks. So lets help the newbies that really want to make the effort and not the ones who want to start a nano on a whim.


This arguement has been beaten to death. The points have been made... the user is on a vacation from the forums right now, and this thread has worn out its use. This thread is closed.