Breeding Cardinal Tetras, a learning Experience!

Shawnts106 · 03-01-2006, 08:47 PM

Hey you guys Im new to the forum, found you through a Yahoo Search and glad I did...

I am ALWAYS on another popular Saltwater Aquarium Forum... having had a Reef Tank, now going on 7 years... its very very easy to do freshwater... need I say more! haha

HOWEVER, I have gotten rid of my freshwater aquarium for some time, and working at a LFS myself and seeing FW and SW fish everyday... Im starting to miss my FW Planted tank... SO!... without further adue..

I have always loved Cardinal Tetras, my favorite fish I do believe, I love their little faces and their colors are, to me, MATCHED to the beauty of saltwater fish speices like gobies, damsels... etc...

So I have kept them before, in a planted tank, and I have wanted to since I took down my Freshwater tank!... SO!.. haha

I have really wanted to breed these guys... there is a growing demand for them here where I live and we can get then fairly easily, florida Bred, or wild caught...
HOWEVER, for some ODD reason, we have had mixed results, some have died quickly, some have had fish TB, and others have been WONDERFUL!...

I have decided to get 12 Florida Bred Cardinals... I decided on the bred ones because they are hardier than the wild guys.... and desease free, if kept well..

NOW:
The tank is a small 3.5-4gallon Nano, with Flourite/EcoComplete/PoolFilter Sand as a substrate, and some Driftwood peices, and plants come in tomorow... Plants will vary, I will have to see what I end up with...

Im useing RO water, so its pure...
My RO Unit is a Kent 60GPD HI-S RO Unit, 4 stager... 2 canisters and 2 RO Membrains...

for some reason my Phosphates are OUT THE ROOF!!!... the RO water is fine, but once put in with the substrate its out the roof... Im thinking its the flourite.. but would like to know more!

Filtration is a Dueto Mini, and a heater is in the tank with temp at 80*F...

My pH is around 7.0... today it was 7.2... and I would like to get it down to 6.0

however Im ignorant as to how!..
I keep my SW pH up easy... dripping Kalk, but FW, thats a whole new story to me!!!

I plan on putting up a 29gallon, and a 10gallon too, for breeding, houseing, colony etc...

So, my questions FINALLY ARE!:

How do I get my pH down, and keep it steady for them, and what do you guys recommed about the phosphates???

also...
What does my dGH and dKH need to be for breeding?

Im also useing TetraAqua?... Blackwater Extract...

Any TIPS advise would help GREAT!
the Cardinals come in on FRIDAY!! errr

So far the nano, where they will be for now is cycling with a dozen feeder guppys and some stability...

please help me out!

**TheOldSalt** · 03-02-2006, 08:08 AM

Hooboy. I'm not sure where to even start.

The mix of substrata of course contributed to the phosphate level, but it will come down once you add the plants. You really should have added the plants and made some mre water changes before ordering the fish. Anyway, finding a happy medium between what the fish want & what the plants want is going to be tricky; try to stick with plants that like low pH & soft water.

I'm sure that others will pop in soon enough. I have to go, now, but I'll be back.

Shawnts106 · 03-02-2006, 08:09 PM

LOL.. I feel a smack on the hand! haha

I would seriously like to get this phosphate problem under control!
How does this mix of substrates cause phosphates?
I know the Plant substrates have some in it, but why would that cause phosphates in the water?

BTW: the plants have been added...
so far ive got

1 Crypt Retrospiralis
5 stems of Hygrophilia
5 stems of Altern. Renekii
3 sm stems of Anacharis
1 plant of Heteranthera Zosterifolia

I know the retro doesnt fit this... but I like it! haha

I am trying to go for the look on pages 110 and 111 of Aquarium Designs by Peter His****...
Mimics a Flooded Amazon Forest

dwool36 · 03-03-2006, 03:59 AM

For a tank that small you can get "Great Value" brand drinking water from Wal-Mart. It is RO processed and comes out of the bottle with a PH of 6.0. It is all I use in my Ram tank. At $.64/gallon it is worth it for me.

**TheOldSalt** · 03-03-2006, 07:32 AM

The substrates are full of minerals, of course, and they leach out into the water very quickly, especially when using uber-soft water like RO which has plenty of leaching power. Adding some blackwater extract type stuff will help bind a lot of those minerals & metals to help a little bit. Adding a lot of plants will of course reduce the phosphates as the plants absorb them. The walmart water will also help, since the solution to pollution is dilution; a bunch of water changes will get rid of the excess nutrients until they reach a level manageable by the plants, and also use up the buffers in the tank which are keeping your pH too alkaline, finally allowing it to drop. RO works too.

There are also phosphate-reducing products on the market like phosphate sponges & Phosguard.

Putting some peat in the filter is a longtime favorite way of dropping the hardness, but distilled water water changes work faster.

As for hardness, you want VERY soft water, no harder than 2 degrees for optimum egg hatching.

Shawnts106 · 03-03-2006, 03:55 PM

WOW! Great Value brand water??? humm... This could be great!

Thanks for that info!

THEOLDSALT:

I have tryed phosgaurd in there, and it was VERY MESSY, not a good thing in such a small tank IMO, but I will try it again..

My understanding is this:

Cardinals Inhabit areas of really dense vegitation, mainly in very acidic waters where the GH and KH is very low to 0, and the pH ranges from 4.0 to 6.5 depending on the time of year...

They are often found in acid pools left over by the receeding water from a flooded amazonian forest...

there are ALOT of tanic Acids in the water produced my decaying vegitation, leaves, wood, and soil..

I would Suspect that the phosphate level in the waters these little guys swim is very high due too all that decaying matter and soil...

would you agree???

Im not saying this is a good thing, just a question...

You said, for egg hatching you want very soft water no higher than 2 degrees, is that gh or kh???

I suspect you are talking about KH... what about gh?

does GH have any effect on fry?... or health? or pH?

just some more questions...

OH, BTW: refer to my other thread in general about recieving the fish for further reading/knowledge inhancement haha

**TheOldSalt** · 03-09-2006, 07:54 AM

---Yes, I wouls agree that the pools have a lot of phosphate in them, but the super-low pH & GH retard keep it from being too big a problem.

---GH

---No, not really. The eggs just need it low to be hatchable. KH is part of GH, so while GH affects the pH, it's mostly the KH part of it doing the job. In a way you could consider the KH trying to maintain the pH while the non-KH part of the GH is trying to change it.

Shawnts106 · 03-10-2006, 02:37 PM

Thats what I was thinking about the phosphates...

do they harm fish?... I forget about them..

I had to change the substrate in the tank with them because it got so bad their was a HORIBLE algae bloom...

So I got rid of that old mixture and put some fine darkbrown gravel in there, so lets hope that did it!

danu · 03-25-2006, 02:31 AM

im not sure about breeding cardinal because they are really hard to be breaded, what i know is they only will breed if the place is DARK and no light allowed to get inside the aquarium

water pH is about 4
water is filtered with some special filter some chemical kation and anion, which i forgot....

the media for the eggs plastic substrate which made like plants..

Shawnts106 · 03-26-2006, 05:31 PM

Well your sorta right

Yes, they only breed in the dark and the eggs have to be dark or it kills them

No the pH doesnt have to be THAT LOW, I have heard of people breeding them in a pH of 7

yes the only way to get the water to be really soft for the eggs with very low to 0 hardness is by RODI or buying distilled or buying spring water of a good quality...

I use RODI

The media for eggs can be fishing line in a ball, or javamoss which I plan on useing

thats pretty much it....

I do have a question though, maybe someone knows...

When youve put a pair in a breeding tank, do you need a small filter on it, or a o2 line or heater ?

I was thinking of a heater and a Dueto mini on its VERY LOW setting...

what are you guys thinking?

03-01-2006, 08:47 PM	#1
Shawnts106 Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 49 User Feedback: (0)	Breeding Cardinal Tetras, a learning Experience! Hey you guys Im new to the forum, found you through a Yahoo Search and glad I did... I am ALWAYS on another popular Saltwater Aquarium Forum... having had a Reef Tank, now going on 7 years... its very very easy to do freshwater... need I say more! haha HOWEVER, I have gotten rid of my freshwater aquarium for some time, and working at a LFS myself and seeing FW and SW fish everyday... Im starting to miss my FW Planted tank... SO!... without further adue.. I have always loved Cardinal Tetras, my favorite fish I do believe, I love their little faces and their colors are, to me, MATCHED to the beauty of saltwater fish speices like gobies, damsels... etc... So I have kept them before, in a planted tank, and I have wanted to since I took down my Freshwater tank!... SO!.. haha I have really wanted to breed these guys... there is a growing demand for them here where I live and we can get then fairly easily, florida Bred, or wild caught... HOWEVER, for some ODD reason, we have had mixed results, some have died quickly, some have had fish TB, and others have been WONDERFUL!... I have decided to get 12 Florida Bred Cardinals... I decided on the bred ones because they are hardier than the wild guys.... and desease free, if kept well.. NOW: The tank is a small 3.5-4gallon Nano, with Flourite/EcoComplete/PoolFilter Sand as a substrate, and some Driftwood peices, and plants come in tomorow... Plants will vary, I will have to see what I end up with... Im useing RO water, so its pure... My RO Unit is a Kent 60GPD HI-S RO Unit, 4 stager... 2 canisters and 2 RO Membrains... for some reason my Phosphates are OUT THE ROOF!!!... the RO water is fine, but once put in with the substrate its out the roof... Im thinking its the flourite.. but would like to know more! Filtration is a Dueto Mini, and a heater is in the tank with temp at 80*F... My pH is around 7.0... today it was 7.2... and I would like to get it down to 6.0 however Im ignorant as to how!.. I keep my SW pH up easy... dripping Kalk, but FW, thats a whole new story to me!!! I plan on putting up a 29gallon, and a 10gallon too, for breeding, houseing, colony etc... So, my questions FINALLY ARE!: How do I get my pH down, and keep it steady for them, and what do you guys recommed about the phosphates??? also... What does my dGH and dKH need to be for breeding? Im also useing TetraAqua?... Blackwater Extract... Any TIPS advise would help GREAT! the Cardinals come in on FRIDAY!! errr So far the nano, where they will be for now is cycling with a dozen feeder guppys and some stability... please help me out!

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03-02-2006, 08:08 AM	#2
TheOldSalt Darth Ichthyos Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,047 User Feedback: (5)	Hooboy. I'm not sure where to even start. The mix of substrata of course contributed to the phosphate level, but it will come down once you add the plants. You really should have added the plants and made some mre water changes before ordering the fish. Anyway, finding a happy medium between what the fish want & what the plants want is going to be tricky; try to stick with plants that like low pH & soft water. I'm sure that others will pop in soon enough. I have to go, now, but I'll be back.

03-02-2006, 08:09 PM	#3
Shawnts106 Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 49 User Feedback: (0)	LOL.. I feel a smack on the hand! haha I would seriously like to get this phosphate problem under control! How does this mix of substrates cause phosphates? I know the Plant substrates have some in it, but why would that cause phosphates in the water? BTW: the plants have been added... so far ive got 1 Crypt Retrospiralis 5 stems of Hygrophilia 5 stems of Altern. Renekii 3 sm stems of Anacharis 1 plant of Heteranthera Zosterifolia I know the retro doesnt fit this... but I like it! haha I am trying to go for the look on pages 110 and 111 of Aquarium Designs by Peter His****... Mimics a Flooded Amazon Forest

03-03-2006, 03:59 AM	#4
dwool36 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Southern Indiana Posts: 312 User Feedback: (2)	For a tank that small you can get "Great Value" brand drinking water from Wal-Mart. It is RO processed and comes out of the bottle with a PH of 6.0. It is all I use in my Ram tank. At $.64/gallon it is worth it for me.

03-03-2006, 07:32 AM	#5
TheOldSalt Darth Ichthyos Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,047 User Feedback: (5)	The substrates are full of minerals, of course, and they leach out into the water very quickly, especially when using uber-soft water like RO which has plenty of leaching power. Adding some blackwater extract type stuff will help bind a lot of those minerals & metals to help a little bit. Adding a lot of plants will of course reduce the phosphates as the plants absorb them. The walmart water will also help, since the solution to pollution is dilution; a bunch of water changes will get rid of the excess nutrients until they reach a level manageable by the plants, and also use up the buffers in the tank which are keeping your pH too alkaline, finally allowing it to drop. RO works too. There are also phosphate-reducing products on the market like phosphate sponges & Phosguard. Putting some peat in the filter is a longtime favorite way of dropping the hardness, but distilled water water changes work faster. As for hardness, you want VERY soft water, no harder than 2 degrees for optimum egg hatching.

03-03-2006, 03:55 PM	#6
Shawnts106 Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 49 User Feedback: (0)	WOW! Great Value brand water??? humm... This could be great! Thanks for that info! THEOLDSALT: I have tryed phosgaurd in there, and it was VERY MESSY, not a good thing in such a small tank IMO, but I will try it again.. My understanding is this: Cardinals Inhabit areas of really dense vegitation, mainly in very acidic waters where the GH and KH is very low to 0, and the pH ranges from 4.0 to 6.5 depending on the time of year... They are often found in acid pools left over by the receeding water from a flooded amazonian forest... there are ALOT of tanic Acids in the water produced my decaying vegitation, leaves, wood, and soil.. I would Suspect that the phosphate level in the waters these little guys swim is very high due too all that decaying matter and soil... would you agree??? Im not saying this is a good thing, just a question... You said, for egg hatching you want very soft water no higher than 2 degrees, is that gh or kh??? I suspect you are talking about KH... what about gh? does GH have any effect on fry?... or health? or pH? just some more questions... OH, BTW: refer to my other thread in general about recieving the fish for further reading/knowledge inhancement haha

03-09-2006, 07:54 AM	#7
TheOldSalt Darth Ichthyos Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,047 User Feedback: (5)	---Yes, I wouls agree that the pools have a lot of phosphate in them, but the super-low pH & GH retard keep it from being too big a problem. ---GH ---No, not really. The eggs just need it low to be hatchable. KH is part of GH, so while GH affects the pH, it's mostly the KH part of it doing the job. In a way you could consider the KH trying to maintain the pH while the non-KH part of the GH is trying to change it.

03-10-2006, 02:37 PM	#8
Shawnts106 Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 49 User Feedback: (0)	Thats what I was thinking about the phosphates... do they harm fish?... I forget about them.. I had to change the substrate in the tank with them because it got so bad their was a HORIBLE algae bloom... So I got rid of that old mixture and put some fine darkbrown gravel in there, so lets hope that did it!

03-25-2006, 02:31 AM	#9
danu Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Age: 25 Posts: 2 User Feedback: (0)	im not sure about breeding cardinal because they are really hard to be breaded, what i know is they only will breed if the place is DARK and no light allowed to get inside the aquarium water pH is about 4 water is filtered with some special filter some chemical kation and anion, which i forgot.... the media for the eggs plastic substrate which made like plants..

03-26-2006, 05:31 PM	#10
Shawnts106 Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 49 User Feedback: (0)	Well your sorta right Yes, they only breed in the dark and the eggs have to be dark or it kills them No the pH doesnt have to be THAT LOW, I have heard of people breeding them in a pH of 7 yes the only way to get the water to be really soft for the eggs with very low to 0 hardness is by RODI or buying distilled or buying spring water of a good quality... I use RODI The media for eggs can be fishing line in a ball, or javamoss which I plan on useing thats pretty much it.... I do have a question though, maybe someone knows... When youve put a pair in a breeding tank, do you need a small filter on it, or a o2 line or heater ? I was thinking of a heater and a Dueto mini on its VERY LOW setting... what are you guys thinking?

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