Don't wanna lose my plec

[forman]

I know it's Friday night and I should be thinking about something other than my fish, but my plec has just been lethargic for 24 hours. I hate losing fish. The only fish I haven't ever lost are my 3 black fin tetras, which are 5 years old--everything else dies within 6 months.

My plec looks fine, but just isn't acting as bold. My question is: I tried to add some aquarium salt last night for the first time in awhile, I didn't have enough for 20 gallons. Do you think the sea salt I use in the kitchen is OK to supplement the difference?

I don't know what is wrong. He was fine a couple days ago. I haven't really done anything except try to raise the PH from 6.0, which never happens no matter how much stuff I had per day.....He gets algae wafers every day and has grown to a humongous size...I'm depressed....

[JustOneMore20]

How have you been trying to raise the pH? pH swings can take a toll on fish....

How long has it been since you've added salt (before last night)? That could be what's bothering him...

Have you checked water parameters (ammonia, nitrItes, nitrAtes)?

[forman]

Haven't added salt since forever. Nitrates and nitrites are low--and there's only five fish in a 20 gallon tank--plus huge java fern(s) overtaking right side of tank. Haven't had water problems in a couple years, except the PH is impossible to raise unless this crap I bought sucks--it's Top Fin--other stuff I used before was better--at least got it up to 7.0.

Another issue, I have lost two fish lately-one danio and one mickey mouse platy-and I never found them. They are either lost in Java fern roots or--I don't know--can't find them. I looked everywhere !?! Did they dissolve? Were they eaten? If so, by who?

Sorry if I sound stupid. Like I said, the only thing I do right is raise black fin tetras.

OK to add sea salt, you think?

[forman]

Wait--he's actually swimming around again. Looks better. I left the light off for a few days until today. Was that it? Oh, please let him be better.

[Obsidian]

I would err on the side of not adding the sea salt, mostly because I have heard that pleco's don't do as well with salt in general. What you did add is probably fine. Unless you are treating a disease it is fine not to add salt to the tank, it will do quite well without it. The exception would be if you are raising mollies as those do enjoy at least some salt. There are probably other exceptions without getting into brackish conditions, but in general you will be fine with full freshwater. Keeping salt in a freshwater tank can make it harder to use salt as a remedy for diseases as well as the fish will be more used to it.

[forman]

OK, thanks for help. I will just not do anything more and hope he remains better.

[joe kool]

"Salt" discussions can bring on heated debate and mounds of "proof" from both sides with hours of internet research and years of lab work to back both it's use and abuse in freshwater aquariums. I personally use "salt" in the form of cichlid lake salt (which in reality has more trace elements and what not than actual sodium) to help replicate somewhat the fishes natural habitat. In that aspect IMO it's a good thing. Some fishes are very intolerant of salt. Cories for example are one species that I wouldn't even walk by the tank with a salt shaker in my hand. Maybe not quite that sensitive but you get my point. Salt baths and treatments for disease and parasites are very effective especially when caught early and reduce the amount of antibiotics and such one has to use in a tank. This is always a good thing as well. I have used many different plecos in my African tanks and have yet to find one that didn't like the level of salts I use. There may be some out there that are salt intolerant but mine have been fine at levels up to 4 or 5 TBL spoons per 10 gal of actual aquarium salt when treating for ich down to my normal 2 of cichlid lake salt as dictated by instructions from the manufacturer to replicate the African rift lakes most of the fish I keep are from.

[forman]

Thanks for the salt info. Plec seems better. Don't know why he laid on the bottom under a plant and looked like he had crawled off to die for a day.
I actually got "the net" twice, but when I touched him he swam off like a very strong fish. Now he's clinging to the sides again and acting normal.

By the way, is there any harm in those two missing fish remaining lost in the fern roots? Does that harm the water quality badly to leave a lost dead fish in there? It would really be a huge mess to try to search through those roots.

[emc7]

Leaving a dead fish in causes ammonia and then nitrite. Its a really big deal in a 10g less so in a 20, but if you decide to leave the corpse, change more water for a while. Do you have any scavengers that will eat the corpse. If something picks the body clean to the bones it will be like overfeeding your fish a bit. If nothing eats it you will smell it. I would fish out the corpse just to avoid the smell.

[forman]

No, only have three black fin tetras, one danio and the spotted pleco. I will try to find the corpses again. Boy it's tough. Maybe the pleco ate some of it and that made him sick?

I have to add water constantly anyway. It evaporates very fast. I have to add almost two quarts every other day at least.

[coheedrules]

How often do you change the water in the tank? I'm asking because most will reccomend at least 25-50% weekly and in the last post you sound like you only add water after evaporation.

[forman]

I change out about 40% every couple weeks. I only vacuum the bottom every other water change. I think all this water change and addition is why I can never get the PH up.

[coheedrules]

My two cents: I would start a water change routine weekly - I do 25-30% with RO water so I can get away with a little less on the %, but clean water is always better. 6.0 on the PH is just fine IMHO. The fish you have are mostly from water where the ph is on the acidic side of neutral anyways. Large plecos poop alot so the more water changes, the better. Try and find out what your nitrates are at. I try to keep mine below 5ppm - the fish seem much happier for it. Look into getting a bigger tank for that pleco - he has already outgrown it. 55 gallon or larger would be the minimum if you ask me. Its much easier to keep the fish happy in a larger tank because everything is more diluted in the water. I try to add only dechlorinator and trace minerals (because I use RO water) and thats it. No aquarium salt and no chemicals. Since I started doing this I've lost one fish to an unknown infection that probably came from before my tank. Take everything I say with a grain of salt - I'm no expert - I've been at this hobby for about 6 months but I've made a lot of mistakes! Somebody on this board will correct me if I'm wrong about anything. I think if you increase your maintenance schedule and stop trying to monkey with the water chemistry, you may have better luck.

[forman]

I would love a bigger tank. Believe it or not I actually love the few fish I have and would like to be accomplished at more breeds. I am proud of the fact that my tetras have been with me over five years. Also, it took me a couple years to get the live plants down. I lost them over and over.

More water changes I can do. And I will get an exact read on the nitrates because I cannot find those dead fish in the huge java fern roots. I have tried over and over. I really think that platy "dissolved" because I picked up some pink "fuzz" with the vacuum that looked like some of the remains attached to a mouth. He only lasted six months. You might be right...there has to be a reason I can't keep these other breeds alive. I've tried platys, loaches, catfish, goldfish, mollies, gouramis (oh, it killed me when I lost the rainbow gourami--I tried everything to save that fish. I tried for days. I bathed it, etc.)

[coheedrules]

Just out of curiosity, what's a rainbow gourami? Is it the same as a sparkling gourami or is just another color of the dwarf gouramis?

[forman]

I don't know. That's what the tag said on th aquarium I bought it from.

Update: I have a fungus in the tank. Found out last night when I spotted one tetra has eye cloud. Put tank buddies fungus clear in there. That's probably the source of all my problems at the moment.

[Obsidian]

What kind of pleco is he? If he is a common pleco that may be part of the problem as well. They get very large (up to 2 feet long) and you have a small tank. Plecos are also incredibly messy making water changes even more important.

I am suspecting he is a common pleco based on how quickly he grew.

[forman]

I just looked up some pictures of plecos. Can't tell real well because some look lighter than others. Mine is very very black with some spots on sides. He also has a pointed nose and no whiskers. All I know is he was tiny (and light colored) when I bought him-like an inch at best including the tail-now he's five inches and I think I bought him in June.

I'm gonna test the nitrate/nitrite after I get this fungus issue fixed.

[forman]

Wow, found some more pics. I think you're right. I think I need a bigger tank.

[Obsidian]

At 5 inches he shouldn't be causing too much of a problem, but he will continue to grow so keep that in mind. And like I said they are very messy so keep up with water quality. Liquid test kits are the best and well worth the expense. They last quite a long time as well.