Wasting/starving

K House · 01-23-2007, 07:04 AM

I have 2 fish in the same tank that appear to be starving while all other fish in the tank are thriving. It is a 20 gallon long, Eco-Complete substrate, live plants. I set up the tank in March of 2006 with 3 Apistogramma Agassizi (2f, 1m) and 2 albino cory cats. About 5 months ago I added 5 baby albino cory cats. Then in November I added 3 clown loaches because I foolishly purchased some Malaysian Trumpet Snails and those suckers were taking over my tank! I figured that I would let the little clown loaches munch on them for a year or so and then move them into my 90g to join my other clowns.

2 of the clown loaches are doing great. They are pleasantly plump and they play like happy little clown loaches should. But one of them has always been very shy. I rarely ever see him. He spends most of his time wedged between the glass wall and the submersible heater. Just like the other 2, he is growing in length but unlike the other 2, he is skinny skinny skinny. You would think I haven't fed the poor guy in weeks. I feed flake food in morning. Pellets in the evening. Every other night they get frozen bloodworms. Once or twice a week I toss in some brine shrimp pellets after I turn the lights out. Except for the one clown loach everyone is fine.

But Sunday night I noticed that one of my cory cats is skinny now too. The 5 baby cory cats that I added back in September are still all pretty small. I expected them to grow much faster than they have. But they are frisky and playful and they all have amazing appetites so I wasn't worried. But from looking at this sick guy, I really don't know if he'll make it more than a few more days. He just sits in one place and if you didn't see his little mouth moving, you would think he's dead already.

What is going on? Maybe internal parasites? But why is it only affecting certain fish and everyone else in the tank is fine? What should I do?

The only other thing that is odd about this tank is the algae. The tank sits near a window and gets some afternoon sun. I have put black posterboard on that side of the tank to help block the sun but there is a thin coating of thick smooth dark green algae on a couple of the broad leafed plants, the heater, the filter intake tube and some of the glass. I plan to do a scrub down this weekend. I also hooked up CO2 this past weekend.

emc7 · 01-23-2007, 01:38 PM

Algae is ugly but not fatal, maybe an indicator of high nitrates. I got some fish at a auction a year ago and they got skinny and died one by one over months. Internal parasites are certainly a possibility. The treatment is to feed only medicated food for a week or two. The hard part is getting the fish to eat it. If you have a hospital tank, remove the sick fish, parasites "jump ship" as the fish dies and infect more fish. Also change water to dilute the infectious agent (this might help with th algae, too).

K House · 01-25-2007, 06:39 AM

nitrates - 10
nitirites - 0
ammonia - 0
pH - 6.8

I did a gravel vac and 25% water change last night. Then added 10ml of MelaFix. The cory cat passed away during the night and the clown loach refused to eat this morning.

The MelaFix says to treat for seven days. After the seven days if the clown loach isn't better, I'll set up a hospital tank for him and treat him with the medicated food.

Thanks for the info emc7!

**TheOldSalt** · 01-25-2007, 08:23 AM

Why are you bothering with Melafix? That's useless against worms.
Snails + loaches and cories (bottom feeders) = all you need to have a complete life cycle for digenetic trematodes.
Switch to Prazi-pro, or levamisole if you can get & use it. Medicated food is good, too, as long as it's medicated for use with worms/flukes.
Clout is another alternative, but not a good one for loaches.

K House · 01-25-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt

Why are you bothering with Melafix? That's useless against worms.

Because it couldn't hurt. Stupid reason but I felt like I needed to do something and MelaFix is the closest I've got to medicine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt

Snails + loaches and cories (bottom feeders) = all you need to have a complete life cycle for digenetic trematodes.
Switch to Prazi-pro, or levamisole if you can get & use it. Medicated food is good, too, as long as it's medicated for use with worms/flukes.

I will stop by my lfs on the way home and see if they have Prazi-pro, levamisole or medicated food. Is it advisable to move the sick loach into a hospital tank or do I need to treat the whole tank in order to wipe out all the nasty little worms/flukes?

**Ichthius** · 01-25-2007, 01:42 PM

Are there any other visible signs of illness? Any blood around the eyes?

It's probably parasites as more than one fish was affected.

I'd suggest going ahead and treating the whole tank just in case it is IP.

K House · 01-25-2007, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ichthius

Are there any other visible signs of illness? Any blood around the eyes?

Not on the clown loach but I did notice some red on the cory cat the evening before he died. It was on his head, just underneath his eye. The blood spot was sort of branchy looking. Like a burst vein branching out to smaller veins.

K House · 01-25-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt

Switch to Prazi-pro, or levamisole if you can get & use it.

I got a bottle of Prazi-pro. Already put in the first dose. Thank you!

**Ichthius** · 01-26-2007, 10:17 AM

From what you're describing on the corydoras, it sounds like wasting disease.

Good luck!

K House · 03-22-2007, 10:04 PM

Treated with the Prazi-pro but still no improvements. He's even worse now which I didn't think was possible! I've moved him into a hospital tank tonight. I treated again with the Prazi-pro. What else can/should I do?

He obviously has a very strong will to live!!!! I want to do whatever I can to help him.

I haven't tried any of the medicated foods but he is still eating so I can pick some up tomorrow if I need to. What about frozen foods? Anything in particular that would be good or bad for him? I routinely (twice a week) feed the tank that he came out of frozen bloodworms, spirulina enriched brine shrimp, and mysis shrimp. I also just got some cyclops, would that be good for him?

**TheOldSalt** · 03-23-2007, 09:13 AM

Whoa, what a mess.

I hate to have to tell you this, but this fish is pretty far gone, and really too far gone to save. I don't think worms are your problem anymore. It looks more like fish tuberculosis at this point, which isn't practically curable. TB's symptoms are very similar to what you described originally, but I guessed wrong , it seems, since the internal parasites probability was higher.

You can try feeding him everything he'll eat, but I really don't think it will be any help.

By the way, don't let that fish or any of that tank's water get into your local water supply. TB is making a comeback in this country on account of things like that. Do not flush that fish. Bury it, in a plastic bag, ( or throw it out ) and mix the water with some bleach before disposing of it.

I'm sorry I don't have any better news for you. The only drugs that can treat this are either horrifically expensive or highly regulated on account of being cancer-causing, and the tissue damage already done is not effectively reversible.

K House · 03-23-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt

Do not flush that fish. Bury it, in a plastic bag, ( or throw it out ) and mix the water with some bleach before disposing of it.

I'm sorry I don't have any better news for you. The only drugs that can treat this are either horrifically expensive or highly regulated on account of being cancer-causing, and the tissue damage already done is not effectively reversible.

*GASP* Flush?! (I'm being sarcastic - I know a lot of people flush them.) I always bury my fish. Always! I usually wrap them in a small piece of cloth though, so I'm glad you told me to keep him in a plastic bag.

What about my other fish from that tank?! I've already lost one cory cat and now there's another one that looks skinny. The other 2 clown loaches are doing fantastic and I was planning to move them into my 90g this weekend.

I read an archived article this morning on www.loaches.com about wasting and loaches. The recommendation was to treat with Maracyn 1 and 2 concurrently for 10 days. It's worth a shot, right? There's still a chance that it's not TB? Hoping, hoping, hoping...

**TheOldSalt** · 03-24-2007, 07:41 AM

Sure, there's always a chance

K House · 03-28-2007, 08:43 AM

I did 3 treatments of maracyn and maracyn2 but he wasn't improving at all. I fed him a good meal of bloodworms and euthanized him last night. I've never had a fish fight as hard as he did so I felt like I owed it to him to try to save him.

Thanks for your support and advice everyone.

01-23-2007, 07:04 AM	#1
K House Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Age: 34 Posts: 110	Wasting/starving I have 2 fish in the same tank that appear to be starving while all other fish in the tank are thriving. It is a 20 gallon long, Eco-Complete substrate, live plants. I set up the tank in March of 2006 with 3 Apistogramma Agassizi (2f, 1m) and 2 albino cory cats. About 5 months ago I added 5 baby albino cory cats. Then in November I added 3 clown loaches because I foolishly purchased some Malaysian Trumpet Snails and those suckers were taking over my tank! I figured that I would let the little clown loaches munch on them for a year or so and then move them into my 90g to join my other clowns. 2 of the clown loaches are doing great. They are pleasantly plump and they play like happy little clown loaches should. But one of them has always been very shy. I rarely ever see him. He spends most of his time wedged between the glass wall and the submersible heater. Just like the other 2, he is growing in length but unlike the other 2, he is skinny skinny skinny. You would think I haven't fed the poor guy in weeks. I feed flake food in morning. Pellets in the evening. Every other night they get frozen bloodworms. Once or twice a week I toss in some brine shrimp pellets after I turn the lights out. Except for the one clown loach everyone is fine. But Sunday night I noticed that one of my cory cats is skinny now too. The 5 baby cory cats that I added back in September are still all pretty small. I expected them to grow much faster than they have. But they are frisky and playful and they all have amazing appetites so I wasn't worried. But from looking at this sick guy, I really don't know if he'll make it more than a few more days. He just sits in one place and if you didn't see his little mouth moving, you would think he's dead already. What is going on? Maybe internal parasites? But why is it only affecting certain fish and everyone else in the tank is fine? What should I do? The only other thing that is odd about this tank is the algae. The tank sits near a window and gets some afternoon sun. I have put black posterboard on that side of the tank to help block the sun but there is a thin coating of thick smooth dark green algae on a couple of the broad leafed plants, the heater, the filter intake tube and some of the glass. I plan to do a scrub down this weekend. I also hooked up CO2 this past weekend.

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01-23-2007, 01:38 PM	#2
emc7 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Age: 39 Posts: 2,893	Algae is ugly but not fatal, maybe an indicator of high nitrates. I got some fish at a auction a year ago and they got skinny and died one by one over months. Internal parasites are certainly a possibility. The treatment is to feed only medicated food for a week or two. The hard part is getting the fish to eat it. If you have a hospital tank, remove the sick fish, parasites "jump ship" as the fish dies and infect more fish. Also change water to dilute the infectious agent (this might help with th algae, too).

01-25-2007, 06:39 AM	#3
K House Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Age: 34 Posts: 110	nitrates - 10 nitirites - 0 ammonia - 0 pH - 6.8 I did a gravel vac and 25% water change last night. Then added 10ml of MelaFix. The cory cat passed away during the night and the clown loach refused to eat this morning. The MelaFix says to treat for seven days. After the seven days if the clown loach isn't better, I'll set up a hospital tank for him and treat him with the medicated food. Thanks for the info emc7!

01-25-2007, 08:23 AM	#4
TheOldSalt Darth Ichthyos Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,250	Why are you bothering with Melafix? That's useless against worms. Snails + loaches and cories (bottom feeders) = all you need to have a complete life cycle for digenetic trematodes. Switch to Prazi-pro, or levamisole if you can get & use it. Medicated food is good, too, as long as it's medicated for use with worms/flukes. Clout is another alternative, but not a good one for loaches.

01-25-2007, 01:42 PM	#6
Ichthius Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: North Carolina Age: 18 Posts: 731	Are there any other visible signs of illness? Any blood around the eyes? It's probably parasites as more than one fish was affected. I'd suggest going ahead and treating the whole tank just in case it is IP.

01-26-2007, 10:17 AM	#9
Ichthius Moderator Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: North Carolina Age: 18 Posts: 731	From what you're describing on the corydoras, it sounds like wasting disease. Good luck!

03-22-2007, 10:04 PM	#10
K House Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Age: 34 Posts: 110	Treated with the Prazi-pro but still no improvements. He's even worse now which I didn't think was possible! I've moved him into a hospital tank tonight. I treated again with the Prazi-pro. What else can/should I do? He obviously has a very strong will to live!!!! I want to do whatever I can to help him. I haven't tried any of the medicated foods but he is still eating so I can pick some up tomorrow if I need to. What about frozen foods? Anything in particular that would be good or bad for him? I routinely (twice a week) feed the tank that he came out of frozen bloodworms, spirulina enriched brine shrimp, and mysis shrimp. I also just got some cyclops, would that be good for him?

03-23-2007, 09:13 AM	#11
TheOldSalt Darth Ichthyos Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,250	Whoa, what a mess. I hate to have to tell you this, but this fish is pretty far gone, and really too far gone to save. I don't think worms are your problem anymore. It looks more like fish tuberculosis at this point, which isn't practically curable. TB's symptoms are very similar to what you described originally, but I guessed wrong , it seems, since the internal parasites probability was higher. You can try feeding him everything he'll eat, but I really don't think it will be any help. By the way, don't let that fish or any of that tank's water get into your local water supply. TB is making a comeback in this country on account of things like that. Do not flush that fish. Bury it, in a plastic bag, ( or throw it out ) and mix the water with some bleach before disposing of it. I'm sorry I don't have any better news for you. The only drugs that can treat this are either horrifically expensive or highly regulated on account of being cancer-causing, and the tissue damage already done is not effectively reversible.

03-24-2007, 07:41 AM	#13
TheOldSalt Darth Ichthyos Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,250	Sure, there's always a chance

03-28-2007, 08:43 AM	#14
K House Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Age: 34 Posts: 110	I did 3 treatments of maracyn and maracyn2 but he wasn't improving at all. I fed him a good meal of bloodworms and euthanized him last night. I've never had a fish fight as hard as he did so I felt like I owed it to him to try to save him. Thanks for your support and advice everyone.

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