Unknown disease on severum (pictures)

[angsumanroy]

Hello everyone, this is my first posting ever.

Basically my tank has been ravaged by some disease. I have been treating with potassium permanganate thinking its some sort of parasitic infection but I can't identify this disease at all. It seems to eat away at the scales, it shows up mildly goes away after a week or two, maybe due to treatment or not then violently comes back overnight. And within two days the fish is dead. This pattern has been going on for a while.

Any help would be much appreciated in identifying this disease.

Thank you very much. I really want to eradicate this.

images

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14031769@N06/1625321479/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14031769@N06/1626207080/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14031769@N06/1625299819/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/14031769@N06/1626186822/

[TheOldSalt]

YIKES!
What a mess.
Where do you live? Yes, it's important. I can think of 3 major candidates for your problem, but your geographic location would have a big impact on the increased likelyhood of any of them.

In any case, this is not going to end well.

You can try a battery of treatments with CLOUT, metronidazole, salt, Maracyn, maracyn-2, and Maroxy, but if your fish are actually infected with any of the especially nasty viruses I suspect, then these won't help.

Treat these fish, and the entire tank contents including the water, as very hazardous waste. Do NOT let this stuff get exposed to your local environment. Bag up the fish, bag up the gravel, put the water into containers, and throw it all into the trash. If you have one of these viruses NOT native to your area which came in on something from elsewhere, then the very LAST thing you want to do is let your local area get infected.

Sterilize your tank and equipment with bleach and then let it sit dry and empty for a week or two before setting it back up again.

You can try to save your fish if you insist, but don't expect good results. Assume the worst and hope for the best. Sorry about this, but the good news is that at least this sort of thing is thankfully very rare. If you successfully cure your fish using the treatments I mentioned, then that's great. If you don't, though, then you have a real mess on your hands. Viral diseases in fish aren't commonly encountered in the aquarium hobby, but when they do appear they're virtually unstoppable. If your fish are suffering from anything else, then the other treatments should work.

[mousey]

Holy Cow OS, what is that?

[TheOldSalt]

Viral Hemorrhagic Septicemia ( "VHS" )
OR
Maybe another virus, "INS" ( or similar )

It could possibly be caused by a rash of bacteria or even protozoans. The other treatments should either cure those or rule them out as a suspected cause.

[Ice Prince]

where are these viruses normally found?

[Baby_Baby]

SWEET MOTHER OF PURPLE MONKEYS THAT IS NASSSSTTYYYY

I sure do hope they get well soon! Every fish has a fighting chance!

[flamingo]

VHS is the reason why Wisconsin has a temporary hault on all exporting of Game Fish. It effects close to 20-30 different species of fish (that they know of) in the area, and quickly spreads around waterways.
http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/pages/vhsfacts.html

It does look like some sort of "flesh eating bacteria/infection" or something similar.
IMHO, I would take TOS's advise, and simply sterilize the tank, and restart the entire system. Thought medication may slightly work, I don't see a reason to risk having it repeat itself. I've learned this from dealing with Vibrio infections...

"Infected fish shed the virus in their urine and reproductive fluids. The virus can survive in water for at least 14 days. Virus particles in the water infect gill tissue first, and then move to the internal organs and the blood vessels. The blood vessels become weak, causing hemorrhages in the internal organs, muscle and skin. Fish can also be infected when they eat an infected fish. Fish that survive the infection will develop antibodies to the virus. Antibodies will protect the fish against new VHS virus infections for some time. However, the concentration of antibodies in the fish will drop over time and the fish may start shedding virus again. This may create a cycle of fish kills that occurs on a regular basis."

[angsumanroy]

Thank you so much for your replies I could not find any info on this.

I've had this for almost a year actually. I would notice this pattern and recently its getting really bad. So it looked like parasites to me so I am using potassium permanganate but I guess that won't really help much since its a virus. My two severums have it. In my tinfoil barbs, they often get covered by nasty looking bloody spots but these often go away on their own and come back again. The potassium permanganate seems to be working but it could be just coincidence. I'm just worried of putting too large a dose in there but I guess at this point I have no other choice. My two bala sharks don't have this disease at all, nor does my red terror cichlid. My very large severum which is actually imported from South America seems completely immune. I notice the scales become eaten away and then only a tiny thread of scale tissue remains which then hangs freely in the water. I live in Las Vegas, NV by the way.

[TheOldSalt]

It may well still be a protozoan or bacteria instead of a virus. Try those treatments I suggested. If they work, then great. If they don't, then you have a virus.
My first guess is virus, though, especially since you have some fish seemingly immune. Immunity is a viral symptom, right?

[angsumanroy]

Well its interesting, the fish that get it seems to be from stress my big red terror cichlid and my big severum don't have it. I have seen a couple of damaged scales though on the severum and my bala sharks don't get it. I'm going to continue my treatment I figure its better than nothing at this point.

[Fishguy54]

I don't think this is a virus at all. Read this thread carefully. 1st of all he says he has been battling this disease for almost a year. That's way to long. If it was truly a disease he would have either cured it or lost his fish months a go. 2nd He has a red terror (Festae) that is fine. Read "disease" can wipe out fish overnight. It attacks cichlids (See first photos). I think that Festae is beating the crap out of his fish after the lights go off. Look at the photos again, they look like they got beat to a pulp. The bala sharks are fast. That's why I would guess they are not getting beat up. I bet if he removes the Festae the problem will be "cured" They are not called "Red Terrors" for nothing.

[SueM]

I agree, it looks like the poor things are being beaten to death. I've seen first hand what a Red Terror can do, and it's not pretty.

[TheOldSalt]

That could very well be it, yes, and as likely as not is, but plenty of fish viruses are slow & chronic & recurring in their progression.
Still, if this doesn't appear to be especially fatal, then it's certainly worth a try to separate the fish and see if things improve. Heck, they'd almost have to, virus or not.

By the way, it would have helped if you had mentioned that this has been going on for a YEAR, angsumanroy.

[angsumanroy]

You know I was just thinking that its the red terror attacking them. Since my larger fish are fine. This is why I seperate the sick fish in a small enclosure within the tank because I've observed him being very aggressive, however the fish still die. This also does not explain the issue with my tinfoil barb since only one of them is sick. Many months ago, I used to have mostly guaramis in the tank and I lost all of them due to this disease, the symptoms were similar. This was before I had any cichlids in the tank.

[Fishguy54]

If you observed the Festae being aggressive I can just about guarantee he is icing your other fish. Even if you are moving the sick/beat up fish away from harms way they are prolly already beat up so I would guess they are getting infections after the beatings. Only one of your tin foils are sick because this Festae is methodically killing your fish. It starts pounding on a fish, the fish weakens and it eventually finishes it off. You have got to make a choice. Get rid of the Festae or keep him alone. Ether way you will have solved your problem.

[Obsidian]

Originally Posted by flamingo

"Infected fish shed the virus in their urine and reproductive fluids. The virus can survive in water for at least 14 days. Virus particles in the water infect gill tissue first, and then move to the internal organs and the blood vessels. The blood vessels become weak, causing hemorrhages in the internal organs, muscle and skin. Fish can also be infected when they eat an infected fish. Fish that survive the infection will develop antibodies to the virus. Antibodies will protect the fish against new VHS virus infections for some time. However, the concentration of antibodies in the fish will drop over time and the fish may start shedding virus again. This may create a cycle of fish kills that occurs on a regular basis."

Notice this does say it can be a repetitive problem and that fish CAN become immune, but then have the problem resurface later.

If this were me what I would do:
1. Separate out the Red Terror. I would do this for a very long time, if not permanently. But for a very long time so that it can be 100% determined if this guy is in fact just being a really bad bully. I would find a way to keep him alone in case he carries this disease and infects other fish. I would not give him away or back to a fish store. Not until I was 100% sure its not viral.
2. Treat tank as TOS has said, which will likely solve the problem if it is not a virus.
3. I would consider adding some melafix in case it has anything to do with simply being beaten up, but I don't know how this interacts with the cures TOS mentioned so I would find that out first.
4. I would then watch this tank and make sure that the outbreaks have completely stopped, for well over one month, personally I would aim for closer to 3 or 4 months based on what is being said about the immunity going down over time and creating a new outbreak.
5. If there is a new outbreak I would consider euthanizing the remaining fish, steralizing the heck out of the entire set up, and starting from scratch. While the part of me that loves all life would really love to say don't euthanize a healthy fish, the rest of me says that the healthy fish are carriers and any tank you put them in would then be opened to this problem.
6. No matter WHAT I would not add new fish to this tank until I knew for certain. It sounds like you have added new species to the tank before fully getting a handle on what was there in the first place. Please don't do that, for the sake of the fishies.

If you have been dealing with it for a year that tells me you probably have the patience to do what is necessary to care for this tank.

Goodluck!

[angsumanroy]

Thank you all for your suggestions. My fish seem to be doing much better now,
The lesions are healing on the remaining severum and tinfoil barb. The severum is seperated into a little enclosure within the tank. I can't take out the red terror, because I only have one tank. Interestingly enough when I bought him, petsmart was completely wrong. I was expecting a Mayan Cichlid in fact, however as the small fish grew and grew I realized it is in fact a Midas Cichlid! However although I am seperating them this problem is not a result of the Midas cichlid, my tinfoil barbs have had these lesions since the Midas was a tiny little guy.
Feeding often seems to be helping with the aggression and he doesn't bother the other fish. I've been treating almost daily with potassium permanganate as well as oddly enough eucalyptus oil. The eucalyptus oil seems to work fairly well, as I started using that before the potassium permanganate with some good results. If anything it doesn't hurt anything, I figured since its a natural antiseptic, it could have some use, and I've seen some articles using tea-tree oil to treat fish.

[Cichlidsrule]

Well, thank God it doesn't seem to be the virus TOS mentioned. That sounds terrible.