Velvet Disease

[Huugs]

My goldfish I think have velvet. It looks like slime patches on their bodies mainly on the top of the head and also on the tips of the fins and tail. I have also noticed that one of them has a slighlt ragged tail.

My levels are
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
pH 8.0
GH 300
KH 200
Phospate 2.5

I have recently just put a few more plants in and also started using and over-dosing with Flourish Excel to help the plants and get rid of the red algae.
Other than that there have been now other changes.

I first noticed this a couple of days ago but it was only small patches and previously had had this and it cleared up. It was about the time I added the new plants did a big water change (40%) and started the Flourish Excel dosing. I dont think the probably is temperature but it tends to be between 23 to 26/27 degrees. At most the difference over the day is 3 degrees. But that is sloly changing in temp and they seem to have been coping fine with that up till now. The fish are acting fine and eating fine and dont seem to have chaned at all except for this slime. Any ideas or suggestions on causes and cures would be very much appreciated.

[Baby_Baby]

Hey, hope this helps! lemme know if you need any more info!

Sometimes called gold or rust disease, velvet disease is a condition feared by both freshwater and marine aquarists. Although both freshwater and marine fish can become infested with this disease, there are different species of parasites for the two water systems.

In freshwater, the attackers are Oodinium pillularis and Oodinium limneticum, while in saltwater, the parasite is Oodinium ocellatum.

If you were able to observe both forms of this disease, you would see that they also differ in shape. The freshwater form is in a shape similar to a pear, while the marine form is rounder in appearance.

Although considered a parasite, velvet disease is, in reality, caused by the infestation of several species of algae which, classed as a plant, also have many characteristics of an animal.

When the parasite is in its infective stage, known as dinospores, it will actively propel itself through the water looking for a living host. It moves through the water by means of long, lash-like appendages, known as flagella, which serve as an organ of movement in certain bacteria.

When a host is found, i.e. your fish, the parasite will settle on the skin and send out pseudopods into the skin. Pseudopods are a type of transparent, semi-fluid protoplasm, regarded as the living matter (reproduction, growth, etc.) of all vegetable cells and tissue. At this time, the parasite will lose its flagella, since they are no longer needed.

All this causes an irritation to the skin of the fish and the first sign you'll see of your fish having this disease is the scratching on gravel or rocks the fish will be doing as they try to rub off the parasite which now enters the growing stage.

Fish which are infested with enough of these parasites will appear as if their skin were dusted with a fold powder or have a velvety look in areas. Sometimes the skin will be whitish or cloudy and sometimes this can only be seen when the light is reflected at a certain angle. Except in advanced cases, the ailment is difficult to diagnose without the use of a microscope.

If you suspect your fish may be infested with this disease and you do have access to a microscope, you can carefully remove the infected fish from the water and gently scrape some slime off its skin with a small knife or some other small, flat object. Mix the smear with a drop of water on a microscope slide and cover it with a cover glass.

The parasite is easy to see, because it is darker than the tissue of the skin and, as was mentioned earlier, will be pear shaped with freshwater fish and round in marine fish.

However, once the parasite has matured, it will form a cyst and drop to the bottom of the tank. There the organism's cells will start dividing (the resulting number of cells-differs with the species and the temperature of the water) until the cyst ruptures and the whole cycle starts again, with a lot more dinospores.

It has been determined that the dinospores have a relatively short life span - about 12-24 hours, if the organism is unable to find a host. If the temperature is kept at about 75°F., 50-70 hours are required from the time the parasite drops from the fish to the time the cyst ruptures, so it would be assumed that if all the fish were removed from the tank and the tank is kept empty for about 5 days (a week to be on the safe side), the tank should be clear of all parasites.

Unfortunately, this may not be true. It appears that some of the developing dinospores can undergo a period of rest, so disinfecting the tank is necessary in order to be completely free of Oodinium. Besides, removing the fish just might clean the tank, but the fish would still be infected.

A chemical treatment would be the most practical treatment. Malachite green (1 drop/gallon of a 0.75% solution/day) and copper sulfate (2 parts per million or ppm) will help with the disease, but are also highly toxic (tetras are very sensitive to malachite green) and must be used with extreme care.

Methylene blue (3 drops/gallon of a 5% solution/day) or acriflavine (10 ppm) are also useful and not as toxic. There are several other chemicals on the market that can be used, just be sure to follow the directions carefully.

One word of caution: Be sure to take into account the amount of gravel, rocks, plants, etc. in the aquarium being treated when administering the dosage. For example, if the dosage says one drop of medicine for each gallon and you have a 20 gallon aquarium with 2 inches of gravel, some rocks and some plants, then you have less than 20 gallons of water.

A fairly safe rule is to assume that the volume of water in the gravel is one-half that of the volume of the gravel. Another example: the volume of water in a gravel bed 2" high by 20" long by 12" in width would be 240 cubic inches, or half the gravel volume of 480 cubic inches (length x width x height).

A reappearance of the infestation is frequently seen. It seems that Oodinium is also able to exist in the intestines of the fish and would then be out of the reach of the medication, so it may take several treatments before the parasite is completely gone.

[Huugs]

Thank you. How did you get all that info? I spent a few hours on the net looking and only ot half of that.

Im not sure if it is Velvet disease. I havnt been able to find any pictures of my fish have yet. It does say it can look cloudy but only when the light is reflected off at a certain angle. Well this is true but I have not seen themscraping themselves against rocks or gravel.

I still cant work out what the cause was. The plants I bought were froman lfs which has a plant only tank so they must have been away form fish atleast 50 hours meaning there was not host and they couldnt survive.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe the flourish excel is doing it to them. Any ides on that theory?

And also are any of those treatments safe for plants and filter bacteria?

[Huugs]

Update:

Well the developments are that the slime seems to have reduced on the fish. The water has also gone become milky cloudy. This made me test the water again and I have found that the nitrites are at 0.5ppm (I feel bad coz I must have done the test wrong last time) now I know this could be the cause of the slime and my feelings are that it probably is the problem.

The questions now are what would cause a nitrite spike or small cycle in the tank? There has been no added fish so it cant be that.
So Im guessing that something must have seriously decreased the size of my bacteria colony.
My theories are:

1. the overdose of flourish excel would cause that.
2. it was the flourish excel anyway, the overdose just made it worse.
3. the plants I added somehow gave the bacteria a problem.

When I added the plants I did a 40% water change, gave the tank a good scrub and vacuumed half the gravel but did nothing with the filter. I didnt even remove it from the water.

Any ideas?

[Baby_Baby]

hold on. lemme go find some more info on how this starts.

[Baby_Baby]

Okay. This is what I found. Check all of these and make sure your fish don't have em. Hope this helps. And I'll be more than happy to get you any more info on this subject.
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As with any other living creature there are a wide range of diseases that fish can get. A full list of these would be nearly impossible; however this article will cover a few of the most common ailments. Most diseases can be avoided by keeping your tank clean and doing frequent water changes. If all of the inhabitants of your tank are salt tolerant, putting in the right amount of aquarium salt can also help to prevent disease.

Ich
Description: Ich (Ichthyophthirius) is also known as White Spot. It is a very common parasitic infestation. Many say that ich is caused by rapid changes in water conditions, addition of new fish or poor water quality. The reality is that these events all cause stress to your fish which weakens their immune system and leaves them more open to the disease. Ich is often in your tank unnoticed because your fish are not under enough stress to be affected. Luckily it is as easy to treat as it is common. You must treat your fish swiftly, once you notice the Ich however as it can spread and become lethal very fast.
There are several stages in the Ich parasite life cycle. In one stage they are in your fish, feeding off from them as parasites tend to do. Once they have had their fill, they will drop off into your substrate and form a protective cyst around themselves. There they will grow and multiply. Soon this cyst bursts forth releasing many many more parasites which swim freely in your fish tank until they can find a host. Then the whole process starts over. This entire process can take anywhere from three to seven days. Medication only works in the free floating stage which is why you need to treat your fish for some time after any sign of ich has passed.

Symptoms: Unless you have all white fish, it is easy to spot Ich. Ich appears as small white bumps on your fish's body and/or fins resembling grains of sand. The fish will try to scratch itself on any surface inside the tank as if itching. It may also breath heavy and lose its appetite. Sometimes infected fish will stay away from other fish as they feel weak or exhausted. They may also hover near the surface or other warm areas of your tank.

Treatment: Many commercial treatments are available for ich. Just go to your local fish store and ask. If you have salt tolerant fish, keeping salt in your aquarium also helps both to prevent and to treat Ich. You will have to treat for up to a week after any sign of ich on your fish has passed. This is because the medication only works when the parasites are in their free floating stage in the aquarium.


Body Fungus
Description: Body fungus is just that; fungus on the body of your fish. The fungi feed off from a host fish by releasing chemicals which slowly dissolve the scales or skin of the fish. Poor water quality caused by overfeeding or not cleaning your tank is the most common cause. Body fungus is easy to cure, but must be treated quickly or the fish will die.
Symptoms: White or grey ulcers or patches will develop on your fish, sometimes rimmed with a red line. May look like cloth on your fish. Fish may scratch themselves on any surfaces in the tank.

Treatment: Melafix is a great general antibiotic for aquariums and works wonders on body fungus. Follow the instructions given.


Dropsy
Description: Dropsy is a bacterial infection of your fish's internal organs. Being internal, it is difficult to diagnose and is often not treated early enough to save the host fish. It attacks fish that have been weakened due to excess stress resulting from poor water conditions, overcrowding or being moved. It causes excess body fluids to build up making the fish appear bloated or it's scales to stick out. Early stages of this infection may present themselves as popeye as excess fluid causes the eyes to bulge.
Symptoms: The visible symptoms of drospy come from the excess body fluid buildup inside the fish. Bloating, as well as eyes or scales that protrude more than normal may be signs of dropsy. Avoidance of other fish and loss of appetite are also common.

Treatment: Commercial treatments are available from your local fish store. Just ask as soon as possible. If possible, keep some on hand as you must treat this disease as soon as possible if your fish is to have any chance of survival. Usually by the time the scales of the fish are protruding, it is too late.


Fin or Tail Rot
Description: Fin or tail rot is another type of bacteria similar to body rot. In fact in extreme or untreated cases, the rot will spread to the body of a fish. It generally starts by attacking the thin tail and fins of a fish and may make them shred or appear to be eaten or dissolved. The bacteria often enters tanks through feeder fish or other new fish that are introduced. Most healthy fish will be able to fight off fin or tail rot, and only fish showing symptoms should be treated if possible.
Symptoms: The fins and/or the tail will become frayed, torn or appear to be eaten away at. In some cases, fish will hide or lay on the bottom of the tank away from other fish.

Treatment: General antibiotics such as Melafix will easily cure fin or tail rot. Follow the instructions given.


Flukes
Description: Flukes are parasites that attack the skin and gills of fish. In small numbers they are fairly harmless. In situations where tanks are overcrowded or the water quality is poor, however, they may multiply very quickly and cause harm to already stressed out fish.
Symptoms: Scraping against any surface in the aquarium and heavy breathing are the earliest signs of flukes. At later, more advanced stages, fish will lay on the bottom of the tank with their fins clamped.

Treatment: There are commercial products available at most fish stores for treating flukes. It is very difficult to eradicate them entirely, however, and the best treatment is prevention by keeping a tank clean and not overcrowded.


Hole in the Head - Hexamita
Description: Hole in the head disease is very common among larger fish such as oscars and discus. It must be treated quickly or it will kill your fish. Though it causes ulcers or "holes" in the head and/or body of a fish it is actually an intestinal infection.
Symptoms: As you can probably guess by the name, the typical symptom is "Holes" or eaten away areas on the head or body of fish. The fish may also lose it's appetite and shy away from other fish.

Treatment: There are commercial treatments such as Hex-a-mit available. Ask your local fish store.


Popeye
Description: Popeye is some type of infection or fluid buildup that causes the eyes of a fish to bulge out of their sockets. It can be caused by bacteria and infections may range from minor to fatal. Popeye is often an early warning of dropsy and it is often recommended that you treat it as such just in case.
Symptoms: Eyes of the fish will bulge as if they are going to pop out of the sockets.

Treatment: General antibiotics such as Melafix can be effective, but since it has a wide range of causes, it is hard to treat.


Swim Bladder Disease
Description: A fish's swim bladder is a pouch of air in its body that helps it to swim and float upright as well as providing general balance in the water. Bacterial infections, parasites, and constipation can cause this pouch to become deformed or inflamed affecting the fish's ability to control itself.
Symptoms: Fish may appear off balance or clumsy. It may appear the fish is doing tricks as it will roll around in the tank and have trouble controlling itself. Fish may float or swim upside down.

Treatment: There are commercial products which can be found at fish stores that claim to aid swim bladder infections. Often, feeding your fish a diet of peas for a few days can also help as they act as a laxative, clearing up constipation.


Velvet
Description: Velvet is a parasite which appears similar to and is often confused with ich. The difference is that velvet covers mostly the body of the fish and is a smaller "powder" instead of salt like bumps. Like most similar diseases it is caused by overcrowding, stress, or poor water conditions.
Symptoms: Whitish or yellowish "powder" will form on the body of the fish. The fish may dart around the tank trying to scratch this off as if it itches. Its gills may become clamped and it will start breathing hard.

Treatment: Adding salt (if the fish can tolerate it) can aid in the prevention and recovery of velvet. Commercial chemical treatments are available from pet stores.


Constipation
Description: Due to their compact design, fish often get constipated. This means that they cannot excrete their feces (poop). It builds up inside them and can damage their digestive system. Eventually the toxins can even kill the fish. Luckily it is not contagious.
Symptoms: Fish does not excrete wastes or excretion is dry and large. Fish may develop a rounded belly as it builds and lose its appetite.

Treatment: Commercial fish laxatives are available, but peas also work well if your fish will eat them. For most fish you will have to remove the outer skin of the pea.

[Huugs]

Thanks thats alot of good info there.
The only thing it could possible be is Velvet. Its definately not dropsy, had it before and cured it, not Ich its a film not spots, not fungus either.
I think it just a reaction to the nitrite spike but Im not sure what would have caused this.

[Baby_Baby]

First, do frequent water changes. "Velvet" isn't very infectious, and it
usually attacks weaker fish or those shocked by sudden tds change, etc.
Healthy fish may carry a few and never show symptoms or distress until
ammonia gets too high. Then "boom."

Nothos seem more capable of getting it than many other killies. For that
reason, most experienced breeders routinely add plain salt (non-free-flowing
type NaCl) to their water at about one tablespoon per 5 gallons. It inhibits
the reproductive cycle of the parasite. [Don't use "Ocean" salt as the mixes
for saltwater tanks are buffered to about pH=9.4! Use kosher, rock or table
salt.]

If the water is clean, fresh and well aereated, the simplest treatment is to
raise the temperature to 93-94F (33C) for 24-36 hours. Add some salt if you
like, but some catfish and Amazon species don't tolerate as much as
suggested above.

Quinine sulfate, quinine HCl and Copper sulfate are also effective but can
do in snails and plants (and other fish as you discovered). Use carefully
and *exactly* as directed. No guessing.

*Oodimium*, the flagellate that causes "velvet," is dropped off the fish in
cysts to rapidly divide in the substrate. Hundreds of new ones hatch in a
day or two. They must find a host within 24 hours or die, so velvet can't be
carried for long in any tank without any fish hosts.

[TheOldSalt]

Hmmm... patches of slime, eh?

Hey, baby_baby, howsabout looking up Costia and Chilodonella and showing us what you find? So far this stuff you're getting is pretty good, but now let's try to pinpoint Huugs's actual problem.

[Huugs]

Costia was another thing that had crossed my mind but with that aswell as velvet it says the fish scrape on rocks and gravel, are often lathargic and clamp their fins. They are all acting normal and swimming just fine. Along with the cloudiness of the water Im not sure if it is a disease.

[Baby_Baby]

Alright lemme know if this helps
************************************************** *********
Symptoms: These organisms may infect the gills, in which case the fish become lethargic hanging at the surface and gasping. In early stages the fish may swim jerkily, have folded fins, and rub up against objects in the aquarium. The infection usually begins with small dull or pale areas which then spread until the skin is entirely covered with a fine white or cobweb like film. In advanced stages the fish may produce excessive mucous, the skin may disintegrate and cause bleeding, and secondary fungal or bacterial infections may occur (see below). Other diseases which may cause similar symptoms are fungus, velvet and columnaris.

More information: The protozoans Costia, Chilodonella, Trichodina and Brooklynella are single-celled organisms which are often present in the aquarium. They attatch themselves to the exterior of the fish and feed from the skin cells. In low numbers they are unlikely to cause major problems, but if the fish are crowded or stressed these organisms may take advantage and multiply, causing severe problems. Because all of these organisms are free-swimming they can quickly move from fish to fish and spread the infection. Costia and Chilodonella are the two most virulent forms. An exact diagnosis of which parasite is involved is not possible without examining a skin smear under a microscope, however, since treatment is similar for all this is not strictly necessary. Treatment should be carried out promptly as these diseases can proceed rapidly if unchecked. The effectiveness of different trreatments varies depeding on the exact organism and strain, so be prepared to try more than one medication if necessary.

Prevention: These diseases are unlikely to occur unless the fish are stressed or crowded. Poor water quality and sub-optimal temperatures may contribute to the onset of the disease. Chilodonella may be introduced with fish or plants taken from natural water-ways, so always use extreme caution when collecting from the wild. If you have had any problems with slime diseases it is advisable to perform a water change and treat with either methylene blue or a general anti-fungal medication before adding new fish. For fish which can tolerate it, a little salt also helps to prevent slime diseases.

Treatment: In freshwater an acriflavine-based medication is usually most effective. Fungal medications that combine acriflavine with a copper-based medication such as methylene blue or malachite green are ideal. Before commencing treatment, make sure water conditions are optimal. Perform a partial water change if needed. If the fish can tolerate it, raise the temperature to above 28°C, be sure the water is well-oxygenated. Use the medication according to instructions, and continue treatment for atleast 4 days, or until all symptoms of the disease are gone. Maintain good water quality to prevent relapses. In saltwater either a formalin or malachite green based medication can be used. Treat the fish in a tank without invertebrates (or, if this is not possible, use Myxazin) and use the medication strictly according to instructions. Be sure to provide optimum water quality and good oxygenation.

[TheOldSalt]

Good job.

The addition of the new plants probably led to this problem.
The bigger problem is that all the treatments for these ailments are very bad for plants, so you'll have to treat in a hospital tank, which might be fine for the fish, but does nothing about the beasties still in the main tank. Raising the temp to about 30c while the fish are gone and adding just a little salt or acriflavine will stress the plants, but they 'll probably survive better than the parasites. Continue for about a week, then change 1/2 the water, making sure to do a good cleanup of the gravel and decor in the process. Discontinue carbon filtration during treatment. after it's all fixed, let it run for a day to stabilize and return to normal temperature before returning the fish.
From then on, quarantine the plants just like you would any new fish. Since plants are so sensitive to the treatments, they are typically not treated for anything before being sold.

[Huugs]

Would that explain the milky water and high nitrites aswell?

The water is actually clearer now and havnt had the chance to test yet but itll be first thing I do tomorow but also the patches of slime are getting much smaller and nearly gone on one.

Where do you fine all that info its amazing? Just like to know for the future.

[TheOldSalt]

Yeah, it would explain it, although I'm wondering if I should be worried about where you're getting your plants.

Glad to hear that things are clearing up on their own. you might get lucky this time.

[Baby_Baby]

the info i find i usually just read or look up on the internet. I really enjoy learning stuff bout fish, and I like to help people. so feel free to bug me anytime u need help with somethin =)

[Huugs]

Yea thanks alot both of you.

I got the plants from one of the lfs s near me. I dont think Ill be getting plants from there anymore not now MyraVan has given me a good online place over here. Seems weird though that adding the plants would spike the nitrite.

[Baby_Baby]

ya i don't get real plants. i like fake ones. i'm just not ready to deal with plant and fish problems. so PLASTIC IS GOOD! yay

[TheOldSalt]

Just adding plants wouldn't do it, but the rooting about in the substrate and the rotting of the bruised areas of the plants injured in transport/planting would.