unknown disease

[h_sheltie]

I am having big problems lately. My fish have been dopping like flies. All the fish that have died have had some sort of white spot on them. Before they die they swim around liflessly. For example, they swim upside down and act like they are don't know what's going on. When I wake up in the morning, the described fish are dead. I have a 55 gal and I have the fish that are in my sig.

I have been doing a lot of research. I think I have either ick, colmunaries, or the neon tetra disease. I'm hoping it's either columnaries or ick because they are curable. But, I am very afraid it is the neon tetra disease because this didn't start happening until I added the neons.

At first I thought I had ick so I started the treatment using quIK cure. But, now that the treatment is over, 2 neons have developed ick again. In the morning I will be doing a 25% water change and trying again. The directions say to take the carbon out and I did but, what I failed to realize is that there is carbon is in the filter cartridge too. I will run the filter with out the cartridge and carbon and start again. I am using a Emperor 400 filter. I'm pretty sure thats why it did not work because on the directions it says it will turn the water blue for a few days. The blue in my tank usually dissapears in less than a hour.

I'm hoping that this works. Sorry for the long write-up, but I felt it was neccassary. Any help appreciated. Thank you.

[baby~doll]

its probably ich... the neons might have had it at the pet store and then brought it into the aquarium you have set up (guessing you didnt quaranteen(sp?) the fish first?) but treat for ich until it is gone, raising the temperature helps (someone else will know to what degrees) and i think there is a different treatment where you can use just salt to treat it (once again, someone else can probably tell you what to do)

[fishfreaks]

sounds like ich to me too. did you vac the gravel? i would vac the gravel every 3-4 days of treatment to suck up all the eggs and stuff that fell off your fish. also your best bet is to treat another 2-4 after all signs of ich are gone.

[h_sheltie]

Originally Posted by baby~doll

its probably ich... the neons might have had it at the pet store and then brought it into the aquarium you have set up (guessing you didnt quaranteen(sp?) the fish first?) but treat for ich until it is gone, raising the temperature helps (someone else will know to what degrees) and i think there is a different treatment where you can use just salt to treat it (once again, someone else can probably tell you what to do)

No, I didn't quarantine them. I only have one tank.

[fishfreaks]

if youve got ich you dont want to put them into a quarentine tank anyways, unless your putting them into a tank without it. youll just contaminate that tank too and have to treat. where oh where did that wonderful ich thread go to?

[baby~doll]

i didnt mean to quaranteen them now... i meant before he added them to the aquarium

[h_sheltie]

Would it be ok to turn my filter off while treating? Like I said the cartride has carbon in it itself. So, I'm thinking my first treatment didn't work because of that. I dont really just want to take the the cartridge and carbon container out while the filter is running. Wouldn't that make all the stuff the cartridges pick up go on the bio wheel?

[fishfreaks]

do you have the little cartridge type things that you can open up and put stuff in there? if so i would opt to put cotton in there so you can take the other cartridge out.

[fishfreaks]

Originally Posted by baby~doll

i didnt mean to quaranteen them now... i meant before he added them to the aquarium

oh i wasnt saying that, i was just making sure he new

[baby~doll]

Originally Posted by fishfreaks

oh i wasnt saying that, i was just making sure he new

oh... good idea... lol i coulda confused him

[h_sheltie]

Thanks guys. No you didn't confuse me baby~doll.

Yea I have one of those. That's a good idea fishfreaks. Thanks I'll do that.

[TheOldSalt]

Neon disease takes a long time to grow and spread, so you can rule that one out, I think. Ick is your most likely culprit.

[h_sheltie]

First thing this morning, I got started with the treatment. I did a 25% water change. I took the filter cartridge out and I put cotton in the plastic carbon container. I will keep you guys informed...

[Baby_Baby]

Here's some stuff for the future. You might already know all this, but in case anyone else needs it.
************************************************** *********
Prevention


This section will discuss ailments that affect the fish kept in our aquariums. I will simply not call them diseases because most are not true diseases but a response to some sort of stimuli such as poor tank water management or the presence of actual parasites. I will list the most common ailments, the reasons behind them and the appropriate action needed to "fix" the problem. If you maintain good water quality, keep the right kind of fish together, feed good quality food and monitor all your water properties you will rarely have any problems. A few common sense precautions when you purchase new fish can save you a lot of trouble.

A few things to observe:

Are the fish active?
Are they eating?
Are there any scars, spots or open wounds?
Are the gills nice and pink?
Are the fins wide open, not clamped close to the body?


All of these and more should be closely looked at before you buy any fish and never buy a fish that does not look or act right and "cure" it at home! One last important thing, check out the stores filtration system. If the system is a central one be sure to check out all the tanks for signs of parasites as many are free swimming at some point in their lives, and they could move freely from tank to tank.

Once you decide to purchase the fish a few more precautions should be taken in order to keep risk at a minimum.

Slowly acclimate the fish to your tank water.
Use an antibiotic dip if you can.
Ideally have a quarantine tank set up.
Isolate the fish for two weeks in the quarantine tank.
Keep a close eye on the fish once it's in your tank.
Prevention is better than intervention.




These are basic common sense guidelines that can save you fish, plants and money if properly followed

[h_sheltie]

Alright I don't think the medication is working. I've been using the medication exactly like the instructions say and I've been doing 25% water changes every 3 days. I've lost all my neons except 3 which still have ich on them. Now one of my gouramis is infected too. It really sucks that I lost so many fish to this and I don't want to loose anymore. Should I try another mediaction. Right now, I'm using quick cure.

[fishfreaks]

alright. what is your temp of the tank? youve only been treating about 5 or 6 days, right? it make take a bit more time. personally i like rid ich, something with the melactite (sp?) green works really well, but can turn the silicone in your tank blue. so if your not worried about it then cool. ichs life cycle speeds up with warmer temperatures, and slows down with cooler temps.

[h_sheltie]

I usually have my tank at 78 degrees, but for treatment I have it set on 81. The medication I'm using has melchite green(howerver u spell it). I guess I just need to keep treating. Is it normal for fish to catch ich during treatment that didn't have it when I started treating?

[fishfreaks]

yes its normal. i will try to find the nice thread we had awhile back going about ich and the life cycle. the short version, the cells fall off your fish, down into the substrate and as they lye there the keep dividing, and when they "hatch" they look for a host, aka your fish. i would continue treating, until all signs are gone, scratching themselves, and the visible spots. when all signs are gone, treat for another 3-4 days after that, to prevent the ich life cycle to catch up with your fish. keep doing the water changes as you are and follow eveything else and you should see improvements over the next few days

[Baby_Baby]

heres some stuff i dug up on the net. hope it helps

ICH (White Spot)


While there are several diseases that the aquarium hobbyist has to deal with, Ich or White Spot is among the most common. In this article we will discuss Ich, how, why, the life, and treatments of it. Hopefully after you are finished you will have a better understanding of this disease and feel more comfortable in its treatment. First off we are going to look at the scientific side of the disease so that we better understand what it is doing.

ICH

Ich, who’s scientific name is Ichthyophthirius multifiliis and it is a protozoan parasite. As in anything a parasite is a creature that feeds off a host to complete its life cycle. The Ich attaches itself to the fish as a tick would do a dog. After attaching it continues to feed until it is complete.

The life cycle of the Ich is a complex one, as by the time you see it on your fish it is already in the adult stages of its life. The general consensus is that Ich has a lifespan of about 10 to 14 days, while there are those in the science world that will go as far to say the lifespan will be as long as 20 days. When you first see Ich it will appear as grains of salt on your fish. By the time that you see it as stated before it’s in its final stages and ready to reproduce. After falling off of the host, it becomes free swimming and will fall to the bottom of the tank or attach itself to rocks and decoration in the tank.

Once the cyst settles in begins to multiply by dividing itself up to as many as 2,000 times. The result of this division produces what is called Tomites. The time frame for this division can vary. In a tank that is 77 degrees F, the tomites will only require about 12 hours to complete this stage as where in a tank of 50 degrees F it may require months to complete.

After the formation of the tomites is complete, they emerge from the cyst as free swimming Theronts. At this stage of their life they are looking for new hosts to feed on. After finding their new host, they will penetrate the fish’s skin and then become Trophozites where the cycle of life begins again. If a Theronts is unable to find a new host within 24 they will usually die.

So now that we have a general idea of what Ich is dong in our tanks lets take a look at what we can do to stop it.

Treatment and Prevention

While totally preventing this parasite is hard to do, most every aquarium has Ich in it, and it is not uncommon to see ich at the local fish store, there are several things that the aquarium hobbyist can do to help prevent an outbreak. First thing a person should do is look around at all the tanks at the LFS. Make sure that all the fish are healthy. Also take the time to look to see if there are any signs of ich in any of the tanks. Most if not all LFS have their tanks set up on a centralized filtration system, which means that is there is ich in one tank then more than likely there are free swimming tomites in all the tanks. In my opinion there is no better prevention than checking out all the tanks in a store before purchasing even one fish. Second thing, after everything checks out and you take you new fish home, Take your net and scoop the new fish out of the bag from the LFS and put the fish in your tank. Dump the water in the bag down the drain. There may very well be free swimmers in the water and no one knows and by doing this you help cut down the chance of loading your tank with Ich.

You have done everything right and low and behold is that Ich you see, don’t freak out. It does happen, so lets move on to the different ways to treat it.

When treating Ich there is only certain times that the parasite is vulnerable to treatment, knowing this will ease the stress for you. The only times that the Ich can be treated are when they are in the free swimming stage of life. When you see it on your fish there isn’t a lot you can do at this point. If you recall we talked about the Tomite stage. This is the point in which treatments work. There are various treatments you can use and there are many great products out there. RID ICH is a very popular treatment that contains Malachite Green. What makes RID ICH different from other products containing Malachite Green is that the levels of it are not as strong as other products and it is safer for scale less fish.

By no means am I saying that this is what you have to use, rather in my experiences with Ich this is the product I have used with great success.

Water changes can help too at the first sign of out break; if you are seeing lots of ich then you can be sure there are tomites swimming around. There a lot of people that advocates the changing of water on a regular basis when treating Ich. I for one feel that if you are treating the water like you should (you will see below) then water changes are going to run you the risk of starting a mini cycle which is just as stressful to the fish.

Another way of helping rid your tank of Ich is to turn up the temperature of the tank to 82 degrees. The Ich parasite is very much a parasite that’s life cycle is varied on water conditions. The warmer the tank the faster they grow and faster the treatment can work. There are reports that Ich cannot survive in temperatures over 85 degrees. While I do not recommend you turn your tank up that level to just get rid of ICH, raising the temperature will help you cure it sooner.

Another thing that can be done to help with the treatment of ICH is adding salt to your tank. Most LFS carry aquarium salt and it serves in helping gill function and works as a general tonic to fish. BE WARNED The use of salt in tropical aquarium is highly debated. There are many species of fish such as catfish and loaches along with several other scale less fish that cannot tolerate high levels of salt. While it has been my experience that salt in small amounts are good you have to use extreme caution when doing so. Always use much less that the recommended amounts on the box. Start out with ¼ of the amount and see how the tank reacts, and be ready to pull water out if your fish show any strange reactions.

Treatment Times

Most products don’t really give you a good time frame for using their product. With that in mind I will give what I recommend to give you and idea. After you first notice Ich you need to treat. It is my opinion that you need to treat daily for at least 10 days but I prefer 12. After that time then I will go to every other day for a treatment until I have reached the 16 day mark. Another thing to remember here is that you need to treat regardless of time for at least 3 preferably 4 days after you see the last White Spot fall off. With my method you will have every parasite dealt with by the end of the 16th day.

Conclusion

So to recap, after you see Ich on your fish the first thing you are going to want to do is turn the temperature up in your tank to about 82 degrees. If you have a heavy outbreak then do a 10 to 20% water change to help remove some of the tomites. Next you’re going to want to start water treatments with the Ich medicine of your choice and continue to treatment for a minimum of 16 days or 3 or 4 days after the last white spot falls off.

Doing these things will help get your tank back to where you and your fish aren’t as stressed and every ones happy

[fish_doc]

Many times you have to treat for at least 2 lifecycles of the ich. There is a medicine out there that is strictly malachite green from korden. It worked for me in a weeks time. The other mixed meds out there are good but watered down with other types of meds.