guppy's acting weird - is this ich?

[janderson]

Help -
when I came home from work today one of my guppies was acting weird: he was shivering and hiding between two plants in a corner just above the gravel while his buddies were eagerly eating their dinner. A few minutes later he came up to the surface, hovered right in front of the water return and when I offered some more food he did eat a little. But shortly after that he's back on the floor, panting, shivering and looking miserable . Upon closer inspection I found one little white spot on his side. Ich?

This is a brand new 5G tank that just finished cycling 10 days ago and now houses 3x 1.25" male guppies and 1x apple snail. None of the critters were quarantined - they are the first and only inhabitants of the tank. Parameters are ammonia:0, nitrIte:0, nitrAte:10

So what do I do now? Wait a few days to see what happens? Wait until I can get meds tomorrow and then treat with that? Raise the temp to 85 degrees and add salt? And if I do go the heat&salt route, can the snail temporarily move in with a betta?

Thanks!!

[fishfreaks]

what do you mean your fish is shivering? is there any scratching on decor or gravel?

[janderson]

No, he's not rubbing against anything but his whole body shivers - like a person with fever chills.

It actually looks a bit like he's swimming as hard as he can, but he pretty much stays in one place. Sorry, but this is the best description I can give.

[fishfreaks]

here see if this helps. http://www.klsnet.com/files/fishchart.htm i hope it does.

[janderson]

well, there is this one spot and he does seem to be breathing awfully quickly, which would point to ich, but he's not scratching - that's what I'm a little hesitant. On the other hand I figure I should treat as quick as possible...

[fish_doc]

Check your water parameters to start with. Some fish are more affected by drifting or high levels than other fish.


It is very likely that he has also developed ick. Cycling a tank is very stressful on fish and stress is a trigger of ick. Keep a eye on him and if you see one or two more spots develop start treatment for it.

As far as moving the snail he may or may not be ok with the betta depending on his size.

[Baby_Baby]

could it be swim bladder disease? I don't think it would cause shivering, though

[janderson]

Well, it's been 30 hours now and the poor guppy is still on the bottom of the tank. He's not eating and looks awfully skinny.

I've looked at fish disease descriptions on several sites and still can't find symptoms that would completely match my poor guy, even though fish TB sounds like an option. I don't see any discoloration or skeletal deformity, but the rest fits...


Poor fish...

[TheOldSalt]

It's called Shimmy, and while it's more common in Mollies, other fish, especially livebearers, can also get it. It is often caused by a chill, and since fish are coldblooded, it takes them awhile to get over it. Disease is another common cause, and since you've got spots, that's my first guess.
Guppies are prone to their own disease, Guppy disease. It's called Tetrahymena, and it has symptoms which resemble a cross between ick & TB, so it can be confusing. it tends to occur most often when the fish are kept in water too sodt and/or with too low a pH, and a chill tends to cause the outbreaks.
Most strains are very easy to cure with standard ick medicines, so there's usually little to worry about except for the speed of the disease's progression, which requires rapid treatment. A few rare strains, however, have been known to wipe out entire guppy farms with horrifying swiftness because they don't respond to normal treatment, but instead need a heavy dose of nitrofurazone. Ironically, overdose of that drug is what has led to most asian imported guppies usually looking so terrible, while at the same time it's those fish which bring the disease into the guppy tanks of the petshops.

All in all, I wouldn't panic in your case. Just treat as you would for ick, maybe a little bit heavier on the doseage if the normal dose doesn't work after 3-4 days.

[janderson]

Thanks for the help.

"it tends to occur most often when the fish are kept in water too sodt and/or with too low a pH, and a chill tends to cause the outbreaks."

What do you mean by sodt? PH is 7.0-7.2 and temperature in the tank is kept at 78 degrees. According to the in-tank-thermometer I've never seen more than a 2 degrees deviation and that only when I change the water and didn't match the temp exactly. I tested the thermometer in another tank and it seems to be correct.

I'm currently treating with Rid Ich, we'll see what happens.

[TheOldSalt]

Good luck with the Rid-ich..it's junk. It used to be the best, but they changed the formula on account of cancer concerns, and now it's next to worthless. Sometimes it works. Coppersafe is better.

"sodt" should have been "soft."
7.0-7.2 is scraping near the bottom of the guppy's optimum pH range, and Tetrahymena loves it.

[janderson]

This is frustrating. I figured I had done my homework, but I didn't know they need a higher Ph value... grrr. I thought they'd be fine with my water. Oh well, one more thing learned.

If the guppy experiment doesn't work out, I guess I can always leave the 5G as a quarantine tank...

[TheOldSalt]

They don't need a higher pH, they just do better with one, and Tetrahymena isn't such a problem. 7.2 is normally perfectly fine for guppies if they're not infected.
Your fish might just have good old ick, though.
At any rate, there's no need to be frustrated. Just treat and see what happens.

[janderson]

TheOldSalt, I just wanted to thank you for all your advice. I don't think it's ich, though: when I came home from work, the little guy had passed away Ich wouldn't have killed a fish within 48 hours of showing symptons, right? I hope he's in a better place now. I feel like a bad fish parent, I've only had him for 10 days...




Back to the present: What should I do now? I assume I need to keep treating the tank, just in case any of the tankmates are infected with whatever he had? For how long?

[TheOldSalt]

Ick kills pretty fast sometimes.
Yes, keep treating the tank for 3 weeks.

[Lexus]

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt

Ick kills pretty fast sometimes.
Yes, keep treating the tank for 3 weeks.

3 weeks isnt that extreme?? But you are The Old Salt!

[TheOldSalt]

No, it's not at all extreme.
It takes 23 days to eradicate some species of ick, so 3 weeks ( only 21 days ) is actually cutting it a bit close. Since we don't know which 'ick' is the culprit, it only makes sense to assume it's one of the slow ones, and since only one fish has so far been affected, that makes the case for a slow growing/reproducing species all the stronger.

[fishfreaks]

Originally Posted by Lexus

3 weeks isnt that extreme?? But you are The Old Salt!

it makes sense to me. temperatures should vary it too, shouldn't it? it does when it comes to the speed of the life cycle

[TheOldSalt]

Absolutely.
However, you're not gonna speed up a 20 or 23 day species up to 4 days no matter how warm you make it. That's why I hate those meds which say raise the temp to 80 and treat for 3 days; it only works with those species which can be accellerated that much, although they do a good job of knocking it down so much it seems to be cured even when it isn't. A temp of 85 can speed up the slow ones to around 12-13 days or so, but not any more reliably than speeding the quick ones to 3 days. It may seem to work, but they'll be back someday.