Automatic Watch Change System

[RSidetrack]

Alright, so I got a 50 gallon aquarium and of course water changes can be tedious, especially since I don't have a faucet in my basement to use the fill/change system. As a result, I have consulted with my electrician of a brother and we have come up with a system to automatically change the water, whether it be daily, weekly, bi-weekly, etc.

Currently the system is in alpha stage, but we use electrodes to determine water level. Emptying the tank begins with a timer engaging the system and while the electrodes are in the water it runs the pump to push out the water. Once the electrodes no longer make contact in the water the pump turns off, then begins the fill cycle. A solenoid engages and fills the tank until the water level hits another set of electrodes and disengages. Process complete.

Now you are wondering about water treatment. Well if I were on Well water I may not have an issue depending on the metals in the water. However whole house filters can typically remove any harsh metals for fish. I am on city water though - which of course brings in Chlorine and Chloramine. As a result I built my own custom chloramine/chlorine filter. Using activated carbon and ammonia removing chips I am able to break down the (in my water Chloramine) and wipe out the ammonia that is left behind. After testing, I have 0ppm chlorine/chloramine and 0ppm ammonia, so the filtration system works wonderfully.

The system is not fully running yet, but I will start posting pictures once it is hooked up. Everything has been tested and does work though. Now I can do ten percent water changes daily without having to do anything on my own.

Please let me know any questions/concerns you would have with this system and I will let you know if they have been or will be addressed. My brother and I are actually working on perfecting the system and then selling it, so also let me know any interest you would have in a system like this so we can determine market demand.

I will keep posting on this thread with updates and eventually pictures. I should have the system hooked up completely by the weekend. If fully functional I am going to make it look better and then post pictures.

This is in version 0.1 Alpha stage, but I will update with progress.

[Cacatuoides]

How about getting the gunk out of the gravel?

[aspects]

usually its pretty to do a diy auto top off system or drip system (because tyhats all it is, a top off. it doesnt actually clean the tank). with a little research, most people could make one for fairly cheap. but then again, there are those people who dont want to put in the work or are not crafty enough to make one themselves.

nothing will remove the need for regular WC nd cleaning

[RSidetrack]

Originally Posted by aspects usually its pretty to do a diy auto top off system or drip system (because tyhats all it is, a top off. it doesnt actually clean the tank). with a little research, most people could make one for fairly cheap. but then again, there are those people who dont want to put in the work or are not crafty enough to make one themselves. nothing will remove the need for regular WC nd cleaning

The idea of this system is that it is a water change system, not a top off. Top offs are extremely easy while water changing systems are a lot more complex. Most people who have posted how they went about it did it with two different systems, and you can find them on google.

The one system is a manual system that is done by tapping into a canister filter. To empty the water, the user just flips a valve so the output of the filter go to the drain, once emptied they flip the valve back. Then they have a water line they turn on to fill the tank back up. While this is easy - it does require manual intervention - which this system I have come up with avoids.

The other system is automated, and actually a company used to sell them but they have since gone out of business because they used floater valves like you find in a toilet. The problem with this, while it can be fully automated (just have a pump hooked on a timer runs for so long then turns off and the floater valve fills the tank just like a toilet) is the floater valves build up "gunk". Between bacteria and algae the floater valve can lock up which is a HUGE problem. The tank could either never fill or not turn off, just like what happens in a toilet. Problem is in an aquarium it happens a lot quicker due to the bacteria and algae.

The system my brother and I am working on eliminates the floater valves and requires absolutely no user intervention. The system activates on one timer, triggers the out pump, then when reached a certain level the system triggers the water in. Once reached a certain level it shuts off. The only user intervention required is for dosing (if you don't have a filter to remove the chloramine/chlorine) and to clean the electrodes once a month - piece of cake.

[RSidetrack]

Originally Posted by itwuzhere How about getting the gunk out of the gravel?

Gravel cleaning would still require user intervention as you would have to design some kind of auto moving "vacuum" to get the gunk off the gravel. While I would love to have this kind of automation I believe it would be greatly expensive and troublesome.

The idea of this system is to reduce the amount of user intervention for water changes. Yes, the gravel still needs to be cleaned say once a week or bi-weekly. It has been proven that smaller and more frequent water changes are better for fish (10% a day). This system allows you to do this with ease.

Though - you have come up with an amazing point. Maybe an attachment so that during pump out you can clean out the gravel. I will look into this idea so that once a week during the water change cycle one can just use the gravel suction attachment.

[aspects]

Originally Posted by RSidetrack Gravel cleaning would still require user intervention as you would have to design some kind of auto moving "vacuum" to get the gunk off the gravel.

unless it cleans the tank and gravel, it it merely a top off system.

[jones57742]

Originally Posted by RSidetrack Currently the system is in alpha stage, but we use electrodes to determine water level. Emptying the tank begins with a timer engaging the system and while the electrodes are in the water it runs the pump to push out the water. Once the electrodes no longer make contact in the water the pump turns off, then begins the fill cycle. A solenoid engages and fills the tank until the water level hits another set of electrodes and disengages. Process complete.

RS: I really do mean to "rain on your parade but this is a standard process control protocol.

Also, as the tank is in your basement, I would strong recommend a master high level shutoff (ie. you do not want your basement to become a pond which easily happen is just a few hours) and a low level shutoff (ie. drain your tank and fishies die).

These shutoffs should be on independent control circuitry from your primary control system.

Also please implement additional controls for power outages.

As you can tell I do not believe that you have not considered all parameters associated with your proposed process and that your electrician does not understand these (ie. he is a long ways from remote control sensing; much less local control sensing).

Originally Posted by RSidetrack However whole house filters can typically remove any harsh metals for fish.

If you are discussing the typical home water softeners they function via the use NaCl and MgCl2, ie. salts.

Originally Posted by RSidetrack The system is not fully running yet, but I will start posting pictures once it is hooked up. I will keep posting on this thread with updates and eventually pictures.

I would appreciate this as I many have a real misunderstanding of the basics here.


RS:

It is possible to fabricate a virtually bullet proof system but I do not believe that such system would be cost effective for a 50G tank (or even a 1,000G tank for that matter).

Have you considered a manually operated system with hand control valves (ie. positive on/off) and the addition of dechlorinate manually?

TR

[emc7]

I'm sure its possible. We have completely automated chemical manufacturing plants, after all. The controls are all out there, its just a matter of price and ease of use. While I'd love an auto-water change system, until somebody starts paying me a lot for my labor, I can't afford to replace myself. There must be display tanks in commercial establishments that can justify the expense, its just a matter of marketing to them or to the aquarium-service industry. I agree with Jones that to be successful, it would have to be "bulletproof". Even a small spill, left unattended, can cause big problems.

It does seem to be an awful time in the pet-supply business. Stores are closing, trade-shows are vanishing. I'm sure there is a niche, but I wouldn't risk my own money to develop a product that would have a hard time getting the financing to manufacture. Though, that kind of difficulty will mean less competition for the few who do get to market.

[RSidetrack]

Originally Posted by jones57742 RS: I really do mean to "rain on your parade but this is a standard process control protocol.

Not exactly sure what you are saying here

Originally Posted by jones57742 Also, as the tank is in your basement, I would strong recommend a master high level shutoff (ie. you do not want your basement to become a pond which easily happen is just a few hours) and a low level shutoff (ie. drain your tank and fishies die). These shutoffs should be on independent control circuitry from your primary control system.

Already have plans for cutoff for overflow. As far as emptying, I am putting the pump out half way down the tank so the most it could ever lose is half of the water and burn the pump up. However, if we got it to the point of selling we would have a safety mechanism for the pump out as well.

Originally Posted by jones57742 Also please implement additional controls for power outages.

Are you talking about safety controls? In other words so it doesn't keep pumping out or pumping in if the power goes out? In which case already handled, if power fails pump out will not have power to run. If power fails on input the control will disable as it is "on" with power.

Originally Posted by jones57742 As you can tell I do not believe that you have not considered all parameters associated with your proposed process and that your electrician does not understand these (ie. he is a long ways from remote control sensing; much less local control sensing).

What would you like to see with remote control/local control? When it comes to electronics he knows his stuff, when it comes to computers and applications we both know our stuff

Originally Posted by jones57742 If you are discussing the typical home water softeners they function via the use NaCl and MgCl2, ie. salts.

I am actually just talking about the standard water filters that are hooked to the in line and then the rest of the house to the out. Typically they contain one or two filters. Most well users use these. Water softeners are a huge problem if you don't want salt in the tank.

Originally Posted by jones57742 I would appreciate this as I many have a real misunderstanding of the basics here.

Pictures coming soon - and probably even video. If you have any independent questions feel free to hit me up on PM.

Originally Posted by jones57742 RS: It is possible to fabricate a virtually bullet proof system but I do not believe that such system would be cost effective for a 50G tank (or even a 1,000G tank for that matter). Have you considered a manually operated system with hand control valves (ie. positive on/off) and the addition of dechlorinate manually? TR

I haven't broken the $100 mark yet on the changing system. Manual operated, yea definitely considered it but then decided to be creative

[RSidetrack]

Originally Posted by aspects unless it cleans the tank and gravel, it it merely a top off system.

Top off system infers what it says - water top off (evaporation requires topping off). Top off systems do not lower Nitrate levels as water is merely evaporated (raising Nitrate ppm levels) and then topping off reduces back to original ppm levels. Water changing systems remove water, thereby lowering Nitrate levels.

Another example is salt. Top off systems do not need any salt added as salt does not evaporate, it remains just like Nitrates. So a top off system will raise the level so it isn't low, but will not remove any salt.

Water changing requires addition of salt - which this system would require which means it isn't good for saltwater aquariums.

So to be specific:

Water Top Off System: Maintains the full level in the aquarium so that evaporation does not lower the water levels. No water is ever actually removed, Nitrate and Sodium levels remain the same.

Water Changing System: Removes a certain amount of water and replaces it with fresh new water. This lowers Nitrate and Sodium levels - which is the desired affect of a water change. Salt must be added back into the tank when a water change takes place.

Aquarium and Gravel Cleaning System: Haven't seen any that aren't manually controlled, but this cleans debris off of gravel and such by siphoning water out while "vacuuming" the gravel. Tank cleaning requires scrapping gunk off the tank and cleaning items which may have gunk on them. Automation would be very hard. However, by cleaning the gravel you are removing water full of nitrates which can be replaced with clean water.

[jones57742]

RS:

Thanks for the time you spent in responding to my post!

I believe that we are talking "way past each other" with respect to several issues but it is probably just my old age here.

As you indicated and I would very much appreciate please post photographs and narratives for my elucidation.

TR

[RSidetrack]

Originally Posted by jones57742 RS: Thanks for the time you spent in responding to my post! I believe that we are talking "way past each other" with respect to several issues but it is probably just my old age here. As you indicated and I would very much appreciate please post photographs and narratives for my elucidation. TR

The system is up and running and appears to be working good right now. I have to clean things up, I have wires and hoses and things going every which way so it isn't too pretty right now . I will get pictures up as soon as I can make it clean and actually able to describe what you see in the pictures without all the clutter.

[RSidetrack]

Okay, so I got a few pictures - not the best, but I can describe the process at least.

Okay, so I have a timer which goes off once a day at say 4:00PM. When the timer activates, the pump empties the water out of the aquarium until the sensor detects that the water level has been obtained (10%)

As you will see in this picture a gray wire is going into the aquarium and goes into a blue tube attached with a suction cup. This is the water empty level trigger. When the water has gone past these electrodes the pump is turned off. Ignore the electrical tape in the middle (I marked my 10% water level) The pump is on the right hand side. Right now I am using a simple fountain pump. I may switch to a power head in the future.

So to simplify this is the process for empty:
1. Timer goes off at 4:00PM (simple light timer) and turns on pump
2. Pump controller awaits for electrodes to no longer be in water
3. Water level drops below electrodes and shuts off pump
4. Fill turns on


Okay, so the fill turns on now. The fill activates a solenoid to let water in. The water goes through my home made chloramine and ammonia removing filter:

I know, not much to look at, but the water goes in, goes through Activated Carbon and Ammo Chips and out (tested all water parameters, everything is good to go).

From the filter it simply goes into the tank:


Nothing fancy here, just a hose to let water in.

Now, the water keeps filling until it reaches these electrodes:

In which case the solenoid shuts off and water is no longer filling the aquarium.


So, the full process:
1. Timer goes off at 4:00PM (simple light timer) and turns on pump
2. Pump controller awaits for electrodes to no longer be in water
3. Water level drops below electrodes and shuts off pump
4. Fill turns on
5. Water filters through filter and goes into aquarium
6. Water level reaches electrodes telling it the aquarium is full
7. Water fill solenoid shuts off


Now - this system does not have safety features in place yet. Right now it just has two sensors, empty and fill. No "backup" sensors in-case one of the sensors fails. However, emptying the water will just go down to where the pump is. Filling on the other hand will keep filling. The current backup system is my timer right now. It takes approximately 21 minutes to empty 10% of the water and 15 minutes to fill the tank back up. So after 36 minutes the process is technically completed. I give it 40.

While 40 minutes is not enough for an overflow, if the pump out fails for whatever reason AND the pump in sensor fails 15+ minutes is a lot of overflow, which is why we are working on the backup system. Remember, this is in early testing stage.

Anyway, hope this helps somewhat with telling what I am doing.

[jones57742]

Originally Posted by RSidetrack Remember, this is in early testing stage.

RSt: you and your plumber are really on the right track here and are doing very good!!!

Once again I encourage you to implement the fail safe shut offs as soon as feasible as, for example, wading around in knee deep water in your basement will decrease you enthusiasm for this project (as will renting a high head evacuation pump).

Originally Posted by RSidetrack Anyway, hope this helps somewhat with telling what I am doing.

RSt: yes: it helped a bunch and I appreciate the time which you spent preparing it!

TR

[RSidetrack]

Originally Posted by jones57742 RSt: you and your plumber are really on the right track here and are doing very good!!! Once again I encourage you to implement the fail safe shut offs as soon as feasible as, for example, wading around in knee deep water in your basement will decrease you enthusiasm for this project (as will renting a high head evacuation pump). RSt: yes: it helped a bunch and I appreciate the time which you spent preparing it! TR

Yea, I have become quite the plumber with this project and my brother (electrician) is having fun coming up with ways to do it.

I found one flaw while running tests a couple times. Residual water on the contacts. My empty worked fine but the fill thought it was already full so did not pump any water in. I am working on a solution to this problem.

The safety system design is coming along - but the residual water could be a problem for it too. I may have to get the contacts further apart, but of course it requires more power and I don't want to electrocute my fish. So going to be working with my brother on the fail safe. Original idea was two extra sets of contacts that run independent and shut the system off completely, but of course the residual water issue makes the fail safe not so safe . It's coming along though.

The filter I have to work on in terms of replacing media. I went and filled the thing straight up, so I have a big cleaning job on my hands when I go to replace the media. I am thinking nylons to hold the stuff in so I can just pull them out and put new in. I was also thinking of some sort of canister idea but that could get expensive which is the opposite of what I want. So far the filter has gone through 15 water changes and still shows no sign of chloramine or ammonia. Makes me wish I could do a whole house system but that would be expensive