Please Read, Please Help

[Rebecca]

Okay, here it goes. I've written before and gotten great help, and now need it more than ever!!
I have a 29 gallon tank with 2 gorgeous orandas that I adore. They're the best of friends, and very cute.
I decided to upgrade their tank to a 55 and add a plecostamus and another oranda. Spotted one in the paper with stand for 140$ and a 36 gallon with stand for free.
I was told that the 36 gallon housed a koi that was 9 inches long including his tail.
I was immediatly alarmed at this poor guys tank size and sent my friend out to pick everything up for me.
He came back with SEVERAL fish in buckets, and get this, the 55 is REALLY a 30 gallon long, and the 36 is REALLY a 20 gallon high.
The fish that was SUPPOSED TO BE A KOI, is really a huge white goldfish, 9 or 10'' from head to tail that was being housed in the 20 gal. high, with barely enough room to move, the filter was broken and covered in slime and he is blind in both eyes and missing scales. One eye is all white with a growth on it and the other is a bulging blood clot that may have happened on the transport.
The other two fish are a Raphael sp? catfish and an african cichlid that was housed in the 30 gal. long.
I immediatly cleaned the tanks, bought new filters, and moved the huge, blind goldfish into the 30 long, and that cat and cichlid into the 20. I switched their gravel over so the fish could have their familiar gravel, and made the cichlid and catfish some caves to take over.
I treated the goldie with paraguard, aquarium salt and clean water with good filtration.
How long can he stay in this 30 gallon??? I want to rehab him there.
Can he get his eyesight back????
If I get a 55 gallon, can I put him in it with my 2 orandas, and a pleco? Is that a comfy set up for all these fish? I have to hand feed the blind one and he's used to it, so fighting over food wouldn't be an issue.
Now, I've never had a catfish other that the cories, and this one is about 5 inches long, and the african cichlid, about 4. They are in the 20 gallon and fighting over territories. Is the 20 okay for them? I've never had a cichlid and would have done my research first, but they literally showed up here.

I'm either really nice , or really dumb .
This all happened 2 days ago. AAAAUUUUGGH.
I have a 125 in my basement for an oscar I may get in the future.
OH, the common goldfish isn't a violent, quick swimmer, since he is blind. He seems to be very careful.

[Damon]

Well first of all Kudos to you and your efforts........

The goldie can stay in the 30 for awhile as long as you keep up with the waterchanges. He's not going to be nearly as active as he should be in his health.
The blindness is most likely permanent (never heard of any animal getting their sight back).

I honestly wouldn't give him more than 2-3 weeks though. If he is blind, finding food will be hard for him, not mention swimming. It might be better to euthanize him and save him the misery.
I would not put him with any other fish if he does begin healing. You really cant tell what all infections or other diseases he could possibly have. You wouldn't want to infect your other fish.
Depending on the cichlid it could work but I'm guessing they will need a slightly larger tank in the least. A more knowledgeable cichlid keeper can help you there once you get him ID'd.

[SkipT]

Originally Posted by Rebecca

I decided to upgrade their tank to a 55 and add a plecostamus and another oranda. Spotted one in the paper with stand for 140$ and a 36 gallon with stand for free.
I was told that the 36 gallon housed a koi that was 9 inches long including his tail.
I was immediatly alarmed at this poor guys tank size and sent my friend out to pick everything up for me.
He came back with SEVERAL fish in buckets, and get this, the 55 is REALLY a 30 gallon long, and the 36 is REALLY a 20 gallon high.

I would really be after the person who sold something other then what it really was. I would atleast get $100 back out of that deal.

20 gal tanks are worth nothing used, can pick them up all day long for nothing and a used 30 gal (29 gal really) is worth about $20.

As for the fish, the goldfish I would just put down now and save it a few weeks of pain. The others maybe ok for awhile in the 29 gal with water changes.


Good luck

[Durbkat]

Thats horrible of that person! I'd return the pleco as a pleco is a tropical fish and goldfish are coldwater fish so they have completly different temperature requirements, plecos need a temp of 78-80F and goldfish need a temp of 66-72F also the pleco will suck on the goldfish which will kill them.

[Rebecca]

Really? I've never euthanized such a large fish before. 2 of you have said to put him down.
I'm not sure how to go after these people legally. My friend who knows nothing about tank sizes, just bought them. If I had gone, I know I would have gotten these things for 10$ based on their condition.
Anyone else.
Durbkat, you're right, the pleco probably would suck on the goldies. Very good point.

[Durbkat]

I wouldn't kill it yet unless it stopped eating or kept running into the walls and got injured.

[Rebecca]

He doesn't seem to be suffering. He's made note of how big is tank is and can turn before he touches the glass.
I don't want to risk my other goldies, but am wondering how long to keep him alone, so I know he's as healthy as he's going to get.
FISH_DOC, I know you have common golds.........

[wildtiger]

If you have a tractor supply in your area you might want to see about getting a tub for him.

[SkipT]

Originally Posted by Durbkat

I wouldn't kill it yet unless it stopped eating or kept running into the walls and got injured.

Well due to the fact that is blind (sounds like both eyes) thats just what will happen to it. It will not eat and it will run into the walls

I still say they best think to do would be to put it down. I do mine when its time to go by freezing them. Put them in a plastic container and put in the frezzer. I think its a very painless way for them to go.

[Durbkat]

I heard its the worst way for them to go as they feel the pain as they get colder and colder then they die, I heard you put them in some fish water and alchlol (beer) and that kills them as well. Well so far she says its eating and not bumping into walls so I'd keep it alive when and if that happens.

[book_em_danio]

Originally Posted by SkipT

Well due to the fact that is blind (sounds like both eyes) thats just what will happen to it. It will not eat and it will run into the walls

I still say they best think to do would be to put it down. I do mine when its time to go by freezing them. Put them in a plastic container and put in the frezzer. I think its a very painless way for them to go.

http://www.petplace.com/fish/euthana...sh/page1.aspx#

Euthanasia in Fish
By: Dr. Craig Harms

Section: A Gentle, Easy Death

Euthanasia is the bringing about of a gentle and easy death, without pain or distress, usually for an animal suffering from a terminal disease. The word literally means an “easy and painless death.” An appropriate euthanasia technique should provide rapid unconsciousness followed by cardiac or respiratory arrest and ultimate loss of brain function.

In a culture where fish often meet their demise after a brief struggle at the end of a hook and line followed by slow suffocation out of water, euthanasia is not always a prime consideration for ending a fish’s life, until the fish in question is an accepted family pet. The subject of fish euthanasia has received greater attention in laboratory animal settings than in veterinary private practice.

Euthanasia can be accomplished by an overdose of any anesthetic agent used for fish. These cause death by direct depression of the brain and vital centers. Larger fish that cannot easily be transferred to a bath treatment may have the anesthesia solution poured directly over the gills.

In cold-blooded animals, including fish, the heart may continue to beat for long periods after brain function has ceased, allowing for partial and somewhat distressing recoveries later if the fish is kept moist and cool. To be certain the euthanasia is complete, once the fish is deeply anesthetized and insensible, cranial concussion (a sharp blow to the head), decapitation (removal of the head), or exsanguination (bleeding out) may be performed to ensure death if heart function cannot be monitored.

Accepted Methods of Euthanasia

The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) Panel on Euthanasia lists three acceptable methods of euthanasia for fish, and two conditionally acceptable methods. Methods listed as acceptable are overdoses with the anesthetics tricaine methanesulfonate (MS-222), benzocaine (related to MS-222 but less soluble in water) and barbiturates. Methods listed as conditionally acceptable are stunning (by a blow to the head) and decapitation in combination, or decapitation alone. Of the three methods listed as acceptable, tricaine and benzocaine are immersion anesthetics, while barbiturates are administered by intravenous injection. Overdoses of other anesthetics in water, such as eugenol (active ingredient of clove oil) and isoflurane (a volatile anesthetic used for gas anesthesia of terrestrial animals) will produce similar effects.

Hypothermia (chilling, freezing) is not considered to be humane when used as the sole method of euthanasia because the animal is not rendered rapidly insensible to pain or distress. However, freezing is an effective method of ensuring death of a fish and may be employed after the fish is insensible from an anesthetic overdose.



Euthanasia of Fish at Home

Bringing a fish to a veterinarian for euthanasia with standard anesthetics or euthanasia agents may not be practical in all circumstances. In these instances it is useful to have humane, rapid and effective alternatives to the toilet bowl. While flushing into the sewer system is almost invariably an effective means of killing a fish by exposure to intolerable water quality conditions, it is not necessarily rapid, and could pose the risk of introducing fish diseases to the local watershed. As mentioned above, stunning and decapitation together, skillfully applied, is considered a conditionally acceptable method of euthanasia for fish, in that it results in rapid and direct depression of the brain due to hypoxia. However, it is not necessarily an acceptable means when applied to one’s own dying pet.

Clove oil, active ingredient eugenol, is being used increasingly in fish anesthesia, and is available from specialty food outlets and many pharmacies. Although it is not completely water soluble without first dissolving in ethanol (grain alcohol), particularly in cold water, enough dissolves to result in anesthesia and subsequent death at doses greater than 0.25 ml per liter of water (about 1 ml per gallon, or 1/4 teaspoon per gallon). Two anesthetic compounds which have been used in fish, but which are not recommended for clinical use due to difficulty in controlling anesthetic level and metabolic derangements they induce, are carbon dioxide and ethanol. Both of these compounds are often available in households when other potential fish anesthetic/euthanasia agents are not.

Carbon dioxide gas is listed as an acceptable method of euthanasia for terrestrial animals, causing death by direct depression of the brain and vital centers, but is not generally considered for aquatic applications. Carbon dioxide is released when Alka-Seltzer® tablets dissolve in water, and euthanasia can be induced with 2 or more tablets per liter (8 tablets per gallon). Ethanol (not rubbing alcohol, which contains a high percentage of isopropyl alcohol) can be used for euthanasia at a dose of 30 ml pure grain alcohol per liter of water (about 1/2 cup per gallon; note that ethanol content in beverages for human consumption is listed as “proof,” with 100 proof being 50 percent ethanol, 200 proof being 100 percent ethanol, and adjust dosage accordingly). Be aware that fish undergoing immersion anesthesia may experience a brief excitement phase as inhibitory neurons are depressed prior to achieving complete anesthesia. After the fish is insensible, these methods may be followed by decapitation or freezing to ensure death.

[Rebecca]

I have used clove oil successfully on much smaller fish that were suffering. He's about the ugliest thing I've ever seen, but I can't say he's suffering.
He very quickly mastered his tank dimensions, and turns successfully without hitting the glass, and eats out of my hand.
I just called the woman that I purchased the crap from, and told her to do the right thing, and mail me my money, as she was very untruthful in her advertising.
I guess she's chinese, and had the friggin' nerve to tell me that that fish was supposed to be kept in the smaller tank, because that's where he's been for over 10 years. Just a reminder, the smaller tank is a 20 gallon, and head to tail, he's 10". She told me that I should be blessed to have him because the koi bring good luck.
Well, she wouldn't know a koi if it bit her in the butt, because he's a monster common goldfish.
Anyways, like I said he's now in a 30 gallon, still too small, but with excellent filtration.
Thanks, Book, however for the cool info. Another vote for death , but I'm in total agreement about the freezing method being on the cruel side.
I've frozen them after the clove oil sedation.

[northfacehiker]

If the fish really is 10 years old, he's had a good run. I'm not a propoenent of fish death, but given his situation, I'd put him down. It's hard to do and isn't exactly fun, but sometimes as a fishkeeper you have to make hard decisions.

Given my lack of clove oil, and my keeping of small fish, a quick decapitation does the trick instantly. Given the size of this big guy, I'd do the clove oil routine.

OH, and is she giving you any of the money back? She obviously sold under false pretenses...

[judya]

Why kill him? He's alive, he's eating well, any health issues (except the blindness) will be improved by a good healthy tank. If you can spare the tank for him. Most gold fish are little eating machines, so if he's eating (he's a big eating machine!) he's doing what he's supposed to. Besides hand-feeding, if you put the food in the same place every day, he'll find it.

I would probably not put him in with the others, as he may have something contagious - it's hard to say. Most of his problem is the terrible conditions he's lived in and now you're giving him a better home.

I wouldn't keep the African unless you like him - they are more agressive, and as you've found out he and the rafael are territorial. However, depending on species and whether it's male or female, some Africans are incredibly beautiful. But unless you really want him, I'd try to find him a diffferent home.

Also many Africans appreciate rockwork in their territory, so if you have extra rocks make a loose mound in one corner and that will give him a better territory.

[Durbkat]

I agree with judya why kill it if its alive, swimming, and eating? I mean if it was running into walls, not eating, or sitting on the bottom alot then yes kill it but like I said if its swimming around, eating, and not bumping into things then let it be.

[msdolittle]

Awww, poor guy..... I don't have any advice and my thoughts are pretty much useless since I'm no fish expert but if he's eating and swimming, I'd not euthanize him either. :'( If he did seem like he was in pain though, I wouldn't hesistate.

[book_em_danio]

I'm not say kill or not. I don't know. I've put down family pets at the vet, like a cat I was very close to for 13+ years. He had diabetes for 4 years and was insulin dependant, that went into remission about 6 weeks before his death, which was due to kidney failure. I was with him when he came out of the womb. I pushed the plunger on the syringe that took him out of this world. I was with him his entire life. It hurt a lot. His ashes are on my bookshelf and he will be burried with mine. Nearly three years later, and I'm still not over it. The death of a pet is very hard. Keeping them alive in pain is something I couldn't do.

[girth vader]

whatever you choose to do will be what you think is best for the fish, and since he's now your fish you need to do what you think is right. However if he stops eating..................

[msdolittle]

Originally Posted by book_em_danio

I'm not say kill or not. I don't know. I've put down family pets at the vet, like a cat I was very close to for 13+ years. He had diabetes for 4 years and was insulin dependant, that went into remission about 6 weeks before his death, which was due to kidney failure. I was with him when he came out of the womb. I pushed the plunger on the syringe that took him out of this world. I was with him his entire life. It hurt a lot. His ashes are on my bookshelf and he will be burried with mine. Nearly three years later, and I'm still not over it. The death of a pet is very hard. Keeping them alive in pain is something I couldn't do.

That just melted my heart......that you'd be so selfless to do it yourself and put your own feelings aside to do what is best for your pet. Very kind danio.

[Rebecca]

Ms. Dolittle, what a little heartbreaker you're going to have there! Look out
Book, what a sweet story you shared with us. Thank you. It is hard to put down a special pet. As you can tell, I've had this goldfish for just a little more than 3 days, and put a total of 350$ into him!!!!!!!!! 140$, originally, (still hoping that woman mails me my money back after I called and *****ed her out,) 80$ for a better filter, and 200$ for a 55 gallon with stand.
Hold on, that's more than 350$ isn't it. I'm going to call a shrink. And a math tutor.
Thanks, Durbkat, for your point. He's not swimming funny or banging into things, and enjoys eating.
I feel badly for him because he's lived over 10 yrs, all alone, in a 20 gallon high tank, being slowly poisoned.
The woman I got him from should get an academy award for not knowing he wasn't a koi, and for not realizing he was blind.
Friggin' idiot.
Yes, the cichlid and rafael are both equally aggressive. The cichlid bites at the catfish, but can't get through his armor, and the catfish uses his nose and body to push him back out of the cave. I built 2, but they just seem to like to fight over the same one.
I have to say, the cichlid is really pretty, and so is the catfish. I'd like to move them into the 29 I have, and put my orandas in the 55.
So far, no one likes the idea of putting this gentle, blind fish in with my orandas, which means he would have to stay in the 30.
Is that possible? He's about 6 or 7 inches, not including his long tail fins.
I just feel so bad for him because he's always been alone, and goldfish are very social.
I'm such a sap.