After Ick

[pookerpics]

I know that this topic must be somewhere else, but I really don't have the time to look through posts right now.
Quick question about Ick. My 30 gallon tank has just got a case of Ick. I just added four Black Neons and four Neon Tetras. I just noticed yesterday that my Bala was covered with sprinkles, my two Serpaes have a couple dots, the four Black Neons are covered. I think everyone else has been spared, unless I missed some dots. ANYWAY, I treated once with Super Ick Cure (the only thing I have), and will continue the treatment as directed. I took out both filters for treating them. When the treatment is over, do I put in the old filters? One is a whispers (I think), the other is a small tank filter (mainly for air). The bottle says to put in new filters. Is this going to create a new cycling? Or do I have enough bacteria within the gravel, plants, decor, etc? The tank has been up and running for over a year. Any input is appreciated.

[Damon]

Depends on how long the old filter was running. While activated carbo no longer leaches chemicals back into the water, it may be at full capacity. You need good carbon to remove any trace of the meds.

[chrisinha]

why dont you use salt? i just had a problem with ich in my goldfish tank, used 0.3% of salt and now they're fine

[Damon]

Salt won't generally kill ich off. Just cause the fish to produce more slime coat. If the fish is stressed, ich will live. And salt doesn't kill all the ich off even in its freeswimming stage.

[pookerpics]

They seem to be responding ok to the super Ick Treatment. I just do not want to start any more problems by changing the filter cartridges.

[Mr Aquarium]

Why don;t you turn the heat up?
I see one spot on my fish, the heats goes up, later tht day, no more ick on fish........leave it there for about a week at over 84*

[pookerpics]

Heat kills Ick? I did not know that it was that simple as to just turn up the heat on my aquarium. I've always tried to keep it between 70 and 80 degrees. I did not think it was safe to have it going over 80 degrees, as I have all different kinds of fish (and frogs), I don't really know which ones might not be able to stand warmer temps. So, I just kind of keep it the same (around 74 or 75) all the time.

[chrisinha]

so, ok. i didnt want to reply to the salt question before i was sure about it, but here's the answer of an expert, Mr. Robert T. Ricketts:

Originally Posted by RTR @ Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:15 am

It does not take much salt to kill the tomites, the free-swimming while seeking a new host stage in FW Ich. ****That is the only stage at which the parasite can be attacked. ****The external visible stage on the fish is under the fish's slime coat embedded in the skin and therefore too well proected to be contacted by treatment with any agent. ****The cyst stage which drops off the fish and multiplies internally to produce new tomites is quite well protected by the cyst itself- it does not eat or have any intake mechanism, so it also is too well protected to be hit by chemical or biological agents without kiling the tank. ****The tomites are tiny and exposed and have no mechanism for excluding the dissolved minerals around it in the water, so the small increase in NaCl does the job(the source does not matter -table salt, kosher salt, marine mix, whatever, will all work). ****

Plain salt (table or kosher) is likely the most effective as it has the highest concentration of NaCl per volume measure, but they all will do the job. ****Personally I do not use "aquarium salt" as I do not know what is in it.

The irritation factor of higher doses on fish's slime coat is secondary but likely non-trivial. ****The increase in slime coat is likely to help avoid secondary infection on just-dropped Ich sites, so not a bad thing. ****BUT, that is not the primary means of action action against Ich in the tank - which is osmotic insult and death from the dissloved NaCl itself.

Heat pushes the Ich parasites into higher metabolism (just as it does for the fish also), so their life cycle speeds up. ****At lower temps - down to the upper 50s - the parasite's cycle can take weeks. ****In the 70s it is much faster, and hits a minimum of about 3 days about 80F and above. Ich has another weak spot there - pushing the temp to the mid-80sF and beyond will itself disrupt the parasite's life cycle all by itself. ****We can use this also. ****If we boost the temp in the infected tank above 80F, best to 85-86F, and hold it there during treatment, the parasite will be racing at top metabolic speed and somewhat endangered by the temperature alone, higher temps than that can kill the parasite even without the salt, but can have similar effects on the fish. ****The fast turnover time also means the tomites (the only treatable stage) are more quickly exposed to the ****salt. ****So I use the double-whammy: ****NaCl and heat. ****In decades of doing this I have not had a failure of treatment in eradicating the parasite.

Dosage of salt depends in part on what your tank and water is like. ****In average tap water with no or undetectable organics and such, the actual required levels of salt are well under 1 teaspoon per gallon of water. ****BUT, our tanks are not that. ****To a scientist our tanks are always more or less eutrophic - meaning a bit polluted to heavily polluted. ****So generally hobbyists never use less than one teaspoon NaCl per gallon, just for safety's sake. ****Effectively very few or no fish or plants will be harmed by that in short-term use. ****Do not add undissolved salt to your aquarium. ****Remove a bit of aquarium water into a large jar or small bucket and dissovle the salt in that. ****Then add the salted water slowly back to the tank. ****If you are using more than 1 teaspoon per gallon, divide the dose into two portions, and space then 8-24 hours apart. ****Part of the myth of salt and catfish is from addition of dry salt directly to the tank.* ****Direct addition is poor to dangerous practice.

The temperature should be increased to 80F at least, mid-80s if the fish are not stressed by reduced O2 in warmer water. ****This will vary with the particular tank and its bioload, and how much of the infection is on the fish's gills (watch their respiration rate). ****Increasing aeration may help the fish get more O2.

The salt and heat should be maintained at least beyond one full Ich cycle, so more than 3 days at and above 80F. ****I maintain 10 days days past the last visible Ich, then s_l_o_w_l_y lower the temp and start daily water partials to dilute out the salt. ****If partials are done during treatment, salt is added to the make-up water only to replace that removed with old water - don't add salt for evaporation replacement water.

*home test: fill a small tank with water, allow it to come to tank temps, have some circulation. ****when stable, add 1 teaspoon per gallon dry salt. ****Get down to tank bottom level and sight across the bottom. ****You will see a nice reflective layer of brine ****with FW above it. ****This happens in the wild as well where rivers and streams dump into the sea. ****That brine layer can kill Cory cats and other bottom dwellers if it lasts long enough. ****Don't do this to your fish.

Many folks who are not in the biological sciences - and a few who are - are unaware of the osmotic effect of salt on some small free-swimming protozoans, especially life cycle stages such as the the tomites.

Another popular myth which should be mentioned concerns the persistence of Ich. ****Ich is an obligate parasite, it cannot survive without a host. ****Removing all fish from a tank and continuing operation of that tank without fish for at least one week, better/safer two-three weeks, will kill off any Ich parasites present.

Ich can be present in fish sub-clinically (not naked-eye visible). ****Its preferred site of attachment is the gills. ****Fish also develop some degree of immunity during an active infection, and if not stressed can acrry parasites on their gills without an outbreak. ****Stess the fish, add new fish, and guess what? ****Clinical Ich. ****That is why complete eradication is so important. ****Then it is really gone unless re-introduced.

I have used copper treatments, still would for certain things (SW white spot for one). ****But that threatment would be be in a QT tank, and any substrate, plastics, and the tank itself would never again be used for any other purpose. ****Copper is forever. ****Inverts and sensitive fish are too big a part of my hobby for me to take the chance.

HTH

and here's the source:
@ The Puffer Forum by Pufferpunk: http://puffer.proboards2.com/index.c...ay&start=0

[fishfreaks]

be sure to treat for atleast 2 days after all signs of ich are gone, and be sure to do your gravel vacs, as that will get all the cells that have fallen off your fish

[Scuba Kid]

heat doesnt CURE ick, pooker. it just helps it to cycle faster.

[pookerpics]

Ok, I think I have a better understanding of Ick now. (I think). I raised the temperature of the tank. I did another treatment last night. I added salt (I used Aquarium Salt) to my tank. It appears to be slowly coming off the fish. I have a Bala Shark who had sprinkles all over him and I only see a few on him. The ones who had it the worst were the Black Neons. They still have a good amount on them. They were just added to the tank a couple of weeks ago along with some Neon Tetras.
I can't stand looking at my tank, it's gotten so dirty over the last four days. I will keep treating until I do not see anymore, then I will give the tank a good vacuum and cleaning to remove any of the dead parasites in the gravel. Thank you all for your help.

[chrisinha]

dont forget that if you're using salt for ich you must have 0.3% of it.
to reach this amount you need 1 tablespoon per gallon
so, if you have a 30g you'll need 30 tablespoons, but you have to divide it in periods of 12 hours. so put it 10 tablespoons, 12 hours later more 10, 12 hours after the last one more 10 tablespoons. the way i did was i put the tablespoon in the fish net and let it hang and dissolve the salt by itself, but the way RTR said is actually to right way to do it.

if you do water changes, you must know how many gallons of water you removed so that you can replace the amount of salt when replacing the water. the treatment should continue for 3 weeks even though you dont see any signs of ich anymore.

good luck!

[MyraVan]

dont forget that if you're using salt for ich you must have 0.3% of it.
to reach this amount you need 1 tablespoon per gallon

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!!!!

That is a ridiculous amount of salt! That is 5 times the concentration of salt you find in a brackish water aquarium. I don't know where you got that concentration of salt from. I have found some articles on the Web that recommend this concentration of salt, but they are WRONG! This amount of salt does far more harm than good.

See the following thread for more info on salt:
http://www.fishforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1186

[pookerpics]

I only added about 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons. That's what it said on the box, so I just did that to see if it would help. I was afraid to even put that much in.

[MyraVan]

I only added about 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons. That's what it said on the box, so I just did that to see if it would help. I was afraid to even put that much in.

Whew! When I just started out I came across some stupid article on the web that said to add 1 tablespoon per gallon, like chrisinha suggested. I panicked and dumped that amount in. I just used table salt, because that was what I had on hand. If only I had bought a box of proper aquarium salt and read the info on the box, like you did, maybe my fish would still be alive today! I'm pretty sure it was the salt that killed them.

[chrisinha]

Originally Posted by MyraVan @ Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:41 am

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!!!!

That is a ridiculous amount of salt! That is 5 times the concentration of salt you find in a brackish water aquarium. I don't know where you got that concentration of salt from. I have found some articles on the Web that recommend this concentration of salt, but they are WRONG! This amount of salt does far more harm than good.

See the following thread for more info on salt:
http://www.fishforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1186

EXCUSE ME but that's the amount i used and it rid my tank off of ich. and my fish are very fine.

Originally Posted by RTR @ Wed Mar 16, 2005 11:15 am

If you are using more than 1 teaspoon per gallon, divide the dose into two portions, and space then 8-24 hours apart.

1 tablespoon per gallon = 3 teaspoons per gallon
I said to divide the dose in 3 portions in a period of 24 hours!

i would never suggest something that i havent used it myself and had good results, of course!!!

here's another GOOD article about it: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums...ad.php?t=39759

Originally Posted by "daveedka[quote

The dosage needed for this is 1-3 teaspoons per actual gallon of water.

[Lexus]

MyraVan, table salt is what killed your fish.
Aquarium salt if added properly wont kill scaled fish. Granted if too much is added at one time it can kill them but a gradual amount wont. But I do agree .3 is alot if its .003 thats not bad thats about what we keep our fish at work at.

[MyraVan]

table salt is what killed your fish

No. In the article below
http://aquascienceresearch.com/APInfo/Salt.htm
I find the following

Are the additives in table salt harmful in aquariums or ponds? The short answer is “no”. Neither the small percentage of iodides nor the anti-caking additives can be considered to be dangerous when the salt is used in ponds or aquariums. There is no valid reason to use only non-iodized salt

I also find this:

To use salt at higher levels (e.g. 1 teaspoon per gallon) than those indicated by the literature [the concentrations suggested by the literature are minute, like 1 teaspoon per 66 gallons of water] is also not justified. Higher levels, especially on freshwater fishes such as characins (tetras), cyprinids (goldfish and koi) and catfishes, will act as an irritant and thereby stress the fishes.

Here's another article debunking the use of high concentrations of salt:
http://www.algone.com/salt_in_fresh.htm

Now, who do I trust, the Aquascience Reasearch Group who says only very minute concentration of salt should be used, or some random web page on the net that suggests raising the salt level to 5 times the salt concentration of brackish water?

Yes, chrisinha, your fish lived through this exceedingly high concentration of salt. So did my zebra danios (the other fish died). That doesn't mean anything. When I ws cycling my first tank, my zebra danios lived through ammonia and nitrite concentrations as high as 5ppm. Does that mean that having such high ammonia and nitrite concentrations is a good thing?

I suggest that you actually read those articles I have referred to before recommending to people that they turn their tanks into almost saltwater tanks.

BTW, since there is so much folklore about using salt in aquariums, I have no objections to people using salt to treat ich, even if it's not really justified by the science. But if you are going to use salt, use some common sense, and keep the salt level below that of a brackish water aquarium (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons).

[pookerpics]

Wow, what a learning experience MyraVan. Doesn't it stink that the knowledge we gain the fastest and retain the best alot of times comes from a bad experience?
Anyway, thank you for your concern and help. I am getting quite frustrated with this Ick, as it is not disappearing as fast as I would like it to. I vacuumed the tank last night, which took out a couple of gallons of water. Added a couple of drops of Super Ick and a shake of Aquarium Salt just for good measure.
My heat is turned up all the way, which doesn't bring it very warm (only about 78 degrees) as the heater I have is apparently for a smaller tank. The fish are still kicking though, except for some spots. So, at least I can say that even if it's not gone yet, I don't think I'll lose any fish from it. Thanks for your help.

[chrisinha]

[quote="MyraVan @ Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:24 am"]

Now, who do I trust, the Aquascience Reasearch Group who says only very minute concentration of salt should be used, or some random web page on the net that suggests raising the salt level to 5 times the salt concentration of brackish water?

Yes, chrisinha, your fish lived through this exceedingly high concentration of salt. So did my zebra danios (the other fish died). That doesn't mean anything. When I ws cycling my first tank, my zebra danios lived through ammonia and nitrite concentrations as high as 5ppm. Does that mean that having such high ammonia and nitrite concentrations is a good thing?

I suggest that you actually read those articles I have referred to before recommending to people that they turn their tanks into almost saltwater tanks.

BTW, since there is so much folklore about using salt in aquariums, I have no objections to people using salt to treat ich, even if it's not really justified by the science. But if you are going to use salt, use some common sense, and keep the salt level below that of a brackish water aquarium (1 tablespoon per 5 gallons).

Im sorry but i trust my own experience, and so far that's what have worked for me and i'll stick with it. i do believe that the salt concentrations should depend on what type of fish you have.

The fact that "aquascience" said this or that doesnt mean much either. otherwise, all people who smoke will die of cancer and we know it's not true.

i would just like that you stop trying to make me look as if i'm giving bad advice on purpose, quoting me and make a scandal out of it (using capital and bold letters) you are being too rude. there are ways and ways to disagree with someone's opinion, but be careful not to offend people. and please, dont tell me what i should do or not. who are you again?

also, i dont believe you can even go close to saltwater tanks concentrations by using only aquarium salt, but i dont know much about saltwater tanks.