Help me choose a new tank for my betta (and maybe more)

[Betta1]

Well I believe it's time for me to find a new forum. A heater in a betta tank is simply where I draw the line. Fortunatley the hobby is diverse enough to allow for various opinions but when a respected member such as jom steps in I find it speaks for the forum. Simply stating that a heater would be optimal however nowhere near required is where I stand. This just defines the issues I've found with this forum as it preaches the extremes of fish keeping and I have yet to find similar views in a single real life hobbyist. Some points good, as fishless is something I view should be everywhere yet i've found not a single person who does it, then theres the other side of things such as a heater in a betta bowl.

Working with customers has shown me this type of view can be limiting as not every customer fits this type of keeping, a woman translating for her russian mother doesn't need to fishless cycle, a father with his children pointing at fish doesn't need you to tell him he is wrong. In the end simply recomending there may be problems with his selection is all that needs to be done. In the end they are actually just fish, unfortunate to lose and living things which should be taken proper care of, though in the end when they do die they are more of a hit in the pocket then anything. This is why I went to fish keeping from other animals as they have little to no emotional attachment. It is a great hobby and I enjoy proper fish keeping and I will continue to but it won't be on this forum. Thank you for the year of information and guide lines, I have enjoyed and appreciated it.

[fishbone]

Wow. I find it really hard to not flame you to oblivion. I'll try to be nice and reasonable. On a fish forum, would you really expect anything less from fish enthusiasts to aim and recommend the best possible solutions? If you go on a Corvette forum, don't be surprised if people don't take you serious when you tell them you drive a Honda or Nissan.

Originally Posted by Betta1

Well I believe it's time for me to find a new forum.

Godspeed!

Some points good, as fishless is something I view should be everywhere yet i've found not a single person who does it, then theres the other side of things such as a heater in a betta bowl.

More of a reason to promote awareness and quash ignorance and bad advice! I think it's deplorable to turn a blind eye to the issue just because "everyone is not doing it".

a father with his children pointing at fish doesn't need you to tell him he is wrong.

Why, just because you're not comfortable with saying "no" or "you are incorrect"? They are uninformed customers, you as a fish keeper should be there to inform and educate WITHOUT sounding condescending and on the best possible tone and politeness. Hell, if we ALL look at it the same way then those that know more than us will never share their information and let us learn by ourselves the hard way. BUt, let me guess. It's good for business too when a fully stocked 75 gallon goes to hell, right? More sales I guess.

In the end they are actually just fish, unfortunate to lose and living things which should be taken proper care of, though in the end when they do die they are more of a hit in the pocket then anything.

That's merely a point of view. What? Someone had a miscarriage? No big deal, they can try again, right? Stop yer cryin'.

This is why I went to fish keeping from other animals as they have little to no emotional attachment. It is a great hobby and I enjoy proper fish keeping and I will continue to but it won't be on this forum. Thank you for the year of information and guide lines, I have enjoyed and appreciated it.

That first sentence sounds to me like cowardice and/or selfishness. Too bad you're not doing anything good with the information you picked up. There's enough ignorance in this world as it is. We should do our best to promote some awareness.

[Betta1]

LOL, i'm so happy to find that you get such a kick out of this. If harping on the insignificant is what gets you by then feel free.

If you actually read my post you'd notice I said that I made subtle recomendations to the father about his selections, however after he has told me he has been keeping fish for years, I simply wasn't going to try be the better man here and tell him flat out he was wrong. I don't know about you but if I had children and I was out having an experience with them I wouldn't want some punk kid trying to tell me whats what, simply put there are more things to enjoying life and having a day out with the kids is probably one of them. I wasn't about to impose on this man. You go ahead and try insisting on the exact specifications on every customer and see where it gets you.

I don't really have much to say other then your obviously a certain type of person who has no real world view. All I've got to say is do you really understand that your trying to play all high and mighty over a heater in a betta bowl? I mean seriously?

I decided to ask several fish sources from the real world what they thought about a heater in a betta bowl, at least 5 and every last one of them laughed about it. So respond and feel special and have a very nice day.

[Betta1]

Apparently I haven't said enough and I'm not sure why, I know from several of your comments the type of person you are and I know for a fact I'm not going to get anywhere.

It isn't the facts that are getting me here it's you and the way you go about things, until I read jom's statement I had never taken the idea of a heater in a betta bowl with any validity. I still have a touch of skeptisizm as not everything is black and white though I'm more then willing to admit she could easily be correct. I feel as if the mentioned points don't necessarily point to a healthier fish simply a more active one, bears hibernate in the winter this doesn't mean they're unhealthy. I'm not aware of what bettas act like in the wild or even if it's different then this that they are in fact suffering any health issues whatsoever. Still the fact that this is jom's opinion and she has done actual research has made me adjust my view. Which for the record is this

A bettas optimal conditions would contain a heater however it is by no means required.

You don't understand that a major portion of people looking to buy a betta are investing 12 dollars to begin with (9$ kit 3$ betta) so your trying to Double their purchase. And it's a purchase I simply don't see as required even if it was half the price. I don't have a heater in my betta tank because of the purchase, I simply don't see the need for it. In fact I have a spare small heater Not being used.

Fishbone I was going to address you directly however I feel that several of your statements have spoken for yourself, anyone who is capable of understanding your type of personality will know what I'm talking about.

[fishbone]

Not to start nitpicking, but ...

Originally Posted by Betta1

If you actually read my post

I have read it, the problem is your writing, however.

you'd notice I said that I made subtle recomendations to the father about his selections, however after he has told me he has been keeping fish for years, I simply wasn't going to try be the better man here and tell him flat out he was wrong.

That's an entirely different situation and I tend to agree with you.

I don't know about you but if I had children and I was out having an experience with them I wouldn't want some punk kid trying to tell me whats what

Again, it's all into HOW you say it. Why would you assume you're a "punk kid" right off the bat?

simply put there are more things to enjoying life and having a day out with the kids is probably one of them.

Sure, but when it comes the time, when you walk into the pet store, it changes.

I don't really have much to say other then your obviously a certain type of person who has no real world view.

No real world view? Trust me, you don't wanna go there. Don't make that assumption based on knowing nothing about me. I'm not your typical ignorant american. For that matter, I'm not even US-born, probably have seen more countries that you ever will. Trust me, my view of the world has nothing to do with the fact that we are in disagreement.

All I've got to say is do you really understand that your trying to play all high and mighty over a heater in a betta bowl? I mean seriously?

It has nothing to do with the heater at this point and everything to do with your general attitude.

I decided to ask several fish sources from the real world what they thought about a heater in a betta bowl

We weren't talking about a betta bow. Ask them again what they think about a heater in a betta TANK in a room that doesn't see temps above 70. But you know what, their response tells me nothing because the same way I can ask a person on the street if they think the US is a country with more freedom than, say Germany, they'll say hell yes. But when I ask them to come up with 3 things you can do in the US and not Germany, they can't. I hope I'm not being too subtle.


A betta in a bowl is STUPID and ignorant to begin with. A heater will make for some interesting temperature swings. That being said, there are VERY small heaters that will effectively raise and hold the temp by about 4 degrees above room temperature. They're the kind you can burry in the substrate. I agree with you, placing a heater in a bowl is addressing the completely WRONG issue to begin with. The real issue is the bowl.

Fishbone I was going to address you directly however I feel that several of your statements have spoken for yourself, anyone who is capable of understanding your type of personality will know what I'm talking about.

Please, entertain me and tell me what those are.

All this started from you saying bettas do not need a heater. You are plain wrong no matter how you try to spin it now. Firstly, it is a blanket statement. Secondly, it makes me think you think bettas aren't tropical fish.

Oh, I was saying above that I've seen more countries bla bla bla? Have you even seen a real rice field, in person? Because I have and I can assure you, these fish are tropical. Yes they are hardy. That doesn't make it an excuse to prolong their abuse. Bettas and goldfish are the most frequently abused fish and it's so widespread that it's become acceptable and even "accurate" knowledge. Am I flipping out over this? Heck no, I'm as calm as ever, I assure you I'm no PETA freakhead. But when it comes down to it, like I said, you're wrong.

[JustOneMore20]

Wow, this thread has officially gotten more off topic than before. I did not want this to become an arguement thread.

If we (myself included) cannot get back on the topic of dm800's tank, then I will close the thread.

Betta1 and fishbone, please take your discussion into PM or make a separate thread about the subject.

[fishbone]

Sounds good to me and I apologize. If Betta1 has anything else to say, I hope he does it in PM, we've already established his assesment in regards to heaters was inaccurate. They are not needed just as that goby is suited in that 29g freshwater ... Hope that's a temporary home.
Back to our usual programming

[Betta1]

Ok one last thing because of a cheap shot... wtf is wrong with a peacefull little goby being in a 29g community tank? It's a small fish and stays a small fish... your just stretching for things to complain about.

BTW there will be no PM's, theres no point in talking to you as you keep changing your mind and in general your simply making no points and just complaining. The simple idea of a heater in a betta tank is NOT required no matter what you think. And talk about attitude.... I'm not even going to continue, theres no point

[fishbone]

That wasn't a cheap shot but I bet it was an impulse buy. Read up on bumblebee gobies and their requirements, you'll find out I'm right.
If you have questions about them I'd be happy to help, as I have experience with brackishwater species, including invertebrates.

[dm800]

Wow, I have been unable to get on here for a few days and see what I missed! Sorry to get you all going!!!

Anyways, I went and bought the 14 gal at Walmart and when I brought it home, it just didn't look good because it looked too tall for where I was putting it. It is on a 24x24 inch end table in a corner in my living room between a chair and couch and it just looked too tall there. The table is really solid too so the weigh is not a concern. Anyways, it said it was 20x10x15 high, but even without the hood it was closer to 17 high. So I am thinking something a few inches shorter might look better. I guess my options would be a 10 or a 15 gallon then. The 15 would go all the way to the edge of the table being 24, so I don't know if that would look good or not. But then again, since it is longer, it may take away from the look of the height. I am starting to wonder if I should just get the 5 and leave the betta alone in it because of some of the stories I read on these forums. But then again some people recommend against the hex so I'm back to square one again. I did do some pricing though and the individual stuff seems about the same price. Especially at the Petsmart website, some stuff is half the price as it is in the store. Well anyways, I am totally confused now!

[neilfishguy]

Just stick with the 14 or get the 15. You will be happy in the end when you have a nice tropical tank (with a heater!!). If it looks to tall now maybe when you get decor it will look better.

[neilfishguy]

Originally Posted by dm800

Wow, I have been unable to get on here for a few days and see what I missed! Sorry to get you all going!

You are not the one who did anything wrong! do not feel bad that someone gives bad advice and then gets into a rage when we try to correct them!

[neilfishguy]

Originally Posted by JustOneMore20

Betta1 and fishbone ... make a separate thread about the subject.

If only!

(10 characters)

[Betta1]

All things aside (things were settled between me and neilfishguy through PM)

I have recently moved my betta into a heated 5.5g with 3 white cloud minows and several frogs. I have also bought another betta which is in a non-heated 1g. It is still my belief that bettas do not require heated tanks over 1g though if it can be done it should. My betta rarely does anything other then float around his 5g so from what I can see it's not doing him much good, who knows perhaps that very rare occurance where he moves more then a 1g provides it can do some good. I have finaly gotten my tank up to 70+ so I'll have a better opinion on temperature affects but so far I don't see much difference.

This is a tough one for me because just the other day I got mad at a customer who insisted crappy dog food is just as good as premium (for several reasons I know it isn't) and his reasoning was that his last dog lived 19 years on crap for food. I strongly believe that just because his dog lived that long it wasn't taken the best care of, surviving and striving are two different things. So I'm going to have to put more thought into my opinion but it still stands the same.

If my opinion should change.... it's not an easy or cheap thing to give a betta that sort of environment. A betta in a 1g in our bathroom is the closest thing I can get to convincing my sister she needs a tank, which couldn't be heated or larger even if I wanted.

[emc7]

I don't think every tank needs a heater, if you heat the room. Many people keep fish rooms at 82F so the tanks will be 76. If you live in Southern CA and keep a tank in a sunny bathroom, than it might be fine. But I do think a heater is valuable insurance. It makes the fish more comfortable, and is good to have on hand in case of ich or sudden drop in room temp. The smaller the container, the more vulnerable it is to temperature fluctuations. Changes are generally stressful for fish and increase the likelihood of disease. Fishkeeping as presented as a cheap hobby - 5 goldfish for 99 cents, but to keep fish responsible is an investment in both time and money, and like any pet, should not be taken lightly (I hate those fairs that give away goldfish as prizes). Although plenty of people see fish as disposable decorations, others give their fish names, talk to them, and cry themselves to sleep with guilt when they go belly up. Often its impossible to tell who will get attached. I realize that "entry level" fish buyers are the reason the stores stay in business, and how almost everyone first gets hooked. We can't really bash the LFSs, if we want to have any place to buy tanks and stuff besides mail order. But informing everyone of what we consider "best practice" is what you can expect from fish-lover's board. If you want something different, go find a fish-seller's board. We do like to argue, so start a thread with a contrary opinion and let us try to flame you, its fun.

I would like to see someone on either side of this argument cite some actual facts from real references, not just "everyone says so"

[emc7]

Back to the original thread.

Especially at the Petsmart website, some stuff is half the price as it is in the store.

Some petsmarts will match the online price in the store, saving you shipping and handling. Usually you need to bring in the print out and talk to a manager. This works with other things including cars and musical instrument, find a good price on the web and ask a local to match it. Online prices are close to what some places pay wholesale, but its a guaranteed sale and they make a new customer.

Online fish suppliers are cheaper if you buy a lot and there is more selection, but for a only few things the shipping eats up the savings.

I like the look of tank that goes edge to edge, so I say get the 15. If you have your heart set on a hex because it would look great in your space, then go for it. But all other things being equal, a rectangular tank is a better buy. The surface area of the tank is a better way to determine how many fish you can keep than gallonage. Hexes have small surface areas and no long sides for swimming room. Kit tanks have only 1 filter and the hexes have little or no room to add another. Acrylic tanks in general are less durable than glass tanks. Buying a non-kit gives you options, you can customize you filters and lighting to your intended fish.

Even so, many of with MTS have an eclipses or other little kit aquarium on our desk at work. The difference is we don't try to stock it like a real aquarium. A few plants and either 1 betta or some shrimp are decorative and soothing to an aquarium addict out of his/her fishroom.

[dm800]

Wow you guys revived this old thread! Well I have a few other posts on here updating my situation, but in case you missed them, I ended up getting the 10 gallon. The whole kit was on sale with flour light and heater and filter, and was not that much more than JUST the 15 gal tank. I couldn't justify spending that much for a 15 because hopefully I would like to get a larger one when I have more room. But anyways, I am happy with it and it looks good there. The betta seems happy in there and I just added 3 harlequins and will probably put a couple more in there and that should be it. Glad you guys settled your dispute!

[Betta1]

ok, well theres no doubt this is a happier fish. For at least half an hour he's been playing in the bubbles of the sponge filter, he'll swim to the top of the filter and ride the bubbles to the top, flare up then swim back for another ride.

His environment has changed so much recently that I couldn't point to one factor inparticular. Between a larger warmer environment with several other inhabitants to interact with mixed with a light ontop which allows me to view as well as probably affects the fish's behavior, well all in all it's a night and day difference. In the future I'll be pushing people to similar setups and away from 1g 1/2g and even 1/4g setups. Unfortunatley the smallest we sell are 50w heaters so I won't be pushing anyone to heated tanks very often.

Out of 24 different types of freshwater fish and well over 100 individuals I've had in the past year I haven't seen a fish even remotely this happy, it really is a sight. (I had to turn the light off, hopefully he'll go to sleep)

[fishbone]

A 50w heater is a good choice even if it's a 5.5 gallon, but the risk obviously is higher if the thermostat fails: it will get hot and fast. You probably have the Whisper heaters, right? At around $9-12 a piece, they are a worthy investment for those that keep their homes under 72-ish.

[Betta1]

We've got a few selections of heaters, can't remember if whisper is one of them but the cheapest is $14 so it's tough to convince people to make the investment. I was thinking more along the lines of something I could convince people to put in a 1g tank. But I've noticed it's tough enough to convince people to even get a 1g for a betta esp when we sell 1/2g kits and even 1/4g tanks WITH a divider in them.... 1/8g per betta..... So I seriously doubt I'll get anyone to do much more then unheated 1g