Filters

[FatboySkinny]

I don't know anything about filters, but I saw this website and I decided to take a closer look. http://www.hiq-usa.com/ I really like the idea of this but I'd like a second oppnion.

-Teddy

[lohachata]

do you know what they say about fishing lures???....
they are made to catch fishermen;not fish..
i don't think that this system will do much of anything it says it will except filter the water like any other filter will..
i ain't buyin it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[emc7]

It looks like an ok bio-filter to me. But no water changes ever? Get real. Even if you suck out all the nitrates, some waste product will build up and some essential trace element with get deficient. Your money back, but not your (now dead) fish.

[Knight~Ryder]

This post right here is a very important one. I would love to hear what EVERYONE has to say about this. It sounds great. I still would do water changes, but if it helps more then normal, hey why not.

Anyone have this, or think its a great idea?

[akangelfood]

I explored their website and....

They are suggesting on their website that people use live plants in conjunction with an undergravel filter.

They tout chemical, biological, and mechanical filtration. My existing filters already do that, as I'm sure most of yours do as well.

They encourage cycling with live fish.

The only thing that I DID find interesting on the site was the use of reverse flow undergravel filters. I'm sure, though, that it isn't a *new and improved* concept.

In short, I'm not falling for their song and dance.

[emc7]

Its a kit with a little HOB filter, a reverse undergravel, some bio-boosting additives and trace additives, a zeolites/limestone filter cartridge. Nothing here is new except the "no water changes" marketing claim. All of these things are around and you can do them yourself if you thing they are better than what you've got.

Reverse undergravel filters push the water up rather suck it down. The give the large biological substrate area of the UG without the drawback of sucking down the food before the fish eat it. If you do it right, the waste gets blown off the gravel and sucked into the HOB.

Zeolite (a clay) and other media (including ion-exchange resins) are availible that adsorb or absorb nitrate. In theory, since nitrate is the end result of all the food you put in the tank, finding another way to get it out would reduce the need for water changes. In practice, these things work for a while, but if you don't replace/recharge them on schedule they will stop working and even return nitrate back to the water. Nitrasorb is one. They do have a place in the aquarist's arsenal and can be helpful but need to be used intelligently.

The limestone buffers the pH by slowly dissolving, its already common practice to put a bag of it in your power filter.

Bio-filter live bacteria is out there in products like bio-spira that "instant cycle" your tank.

Seachem and others offer trace elements for fish, essentially a fish equivalent multi-vitamin supplement.

Its nice to see some R & D go into the hobby and massive water changes can be undesirable (we have drought here). But marketing a no water-change system will only encourage the people who believe that aquariums never need water changes. Of course, industry, loves them because they believe that fish only live 6 months and you have to keep replacing them.

[lohachata]

i believe in using live plants with an undergravel filter..
i believe in using live fish for cycling..
and i believe in biological,chemical and mechanical filtration(and so does "almost" everybody else)..
reverse flow is ok;but i am not crazy about it.
but there is no way that i can accept the no water change foolishness..

[akangelfood]

I've been told in the past that live plants with an undergravel filter is a big no-no, as it causes blockage. Perhaps that conflicts with your experience. I've not tried it, just going off what I've been told. As far as my outlining the types of filtration, I wasn't implying that I didn't "believe" in them, I was simply pointing out that it isn't exactly unique and innovative It certainly doesn't support the concept of "no water changes".

[Knight~Ryder]

Originally Posted by akangelfood

It certainly doesn't support the concept of "no water changes".

But, would it be better then what I have now in any way?

[emc7]

The thing with live plants and a UG filter is that the roots get tangled in it. Then you have a real ch0re to lift up the plate and clean under it. Plants in pots are ok and so are floating ones.

I don't have enough data to say whether it would be better than what you have now. I don't know know exactly what you have now and that link doesn't give anything as helpful as flow rates. Since they exaggerate one claim ('no water changes") I consider all their claims suspect and wouldn't trust the quality of their equipment, "bugs-in-a-bottle" or fish-vitamins either.

What specifically do you find appealing? If you have a nitrate problem, try a proven product like nitrasorb. If you have nutrition issues, use a supplement from SeaChem. If you have trouble doing water changes with a bucket, buy a python or other sink-attachable two-valve hose. If you want to try a reverse UG, use a name-brand power-head and a penn-plax filter plate. Don't go mail-order Chinese-made mystery product.

[lohachata]

you are exactly right angel..there really isn't anything new there except maybe the combining of several elements that are already in existance.i really like tube type undergravel filters for planted tanks.there is a difference..if anybody would like to try..take 2 identical tanks..say 20 highs..1 with a brand name UG filter like penn plax or perfecto..the other with your choice of a HOB or canister filter..no fancy crap..standard lights...small uncoated natural riverbed gravel..no ferts..same plants in each tank..low light of course;such as crypts,aponogetons and the like..stock with these fish...4 corydoras anaeus...6 black neon tetras...6 silvertip tetras,and 6 lemon tetras..no;it is not overstocked.i don't care what you say...lol..remember;this is my experiment.i make the rules.
feed the same foods at the same time twice a day.temps at 78 degrees.25% water change every week..
NO CHEATING.......................................... ............
run these tanks for 6 months..see which one has nicer plants..
and do not clean the gravel..

any wizards want to try????

[Ricker]

Looks neat might buy it for my 20g then I can tell you guys if it is worth it. Anyways I dont do W/C on my 10g as it is I want to see how long I can keep it going the old natural way. I am sure I am going to take some heat for that though.

[akangelfood]

I do have 2 empty 10 gallons, but they have larger natural uncoated gravel and both of them have both undergravel and HOB filters. (What can I say, I'm a fan of over-filtration.) I'm tempted to take you up on this experiment, but I'd prefer if you told me your results and I'll just do both of them in that manner *giggle*

[lohachata]

bigger,better,healthier plants and higher propagation levels in the UG tank.
the UG filter pulls the nutrients deeper inth the substrate;thus providing more food to the roots of the plants.my actual test for this was 2 15 gallon tanks planted with 25 cryptocoryne willisi in each with a small piece of driftwood..substrate was lake erie gravelone had ug and the other a hob..6 months and he UG tank bottom was almost covered with a forest of crypts..

[akangelfood]

That does make sense...any problems with the UGF getting clogged? I've never pulled an UGF for cleaning, not sure how necessary it becomes when roots are involved.

I've always liked doing a HOB in conjunction with an UGF in my non-planted tanks, it really does an amazing job of keeping the gravel and the water clean. If I could do live plants in the substrate (even with an UGF) that would be wonderful!

(And I apologize for the quasi-hijacking of this thread)

[karazy]

my friend has a 250 gallon that didnt have a water change in 3 years(so never had one)

took 2 girls 8 hours to clean it.only fish left were a few butterkofree(sp?) ciclhids. basicaly i'd say it is possible to do no water changes, but its nothing good for your tank at all

[redpaulhus]

Wow - I thought these guys had gone out of business, a clearance store near me has a bunch of thier products at dirt cheap prices this week (this is a "job lot" that specializes in overstock, damaged goods, discontinued goods, manufacturer buybacks, etc)

Hi-Q's office in the US isn't too far from me, so I assumed they were liquidating stock. I wonder if a local store got talked into buying the product last year and finally decided to scrap it.

HI-Q got in touch with me about a year ago thru our fish club, and asked me to test out their filters (they were also going to send a tank for us to raffle off, but that never happened.

The power filters are ok - nothing special.
They feature a handful of small (1" or less) bioballs after the filter cartridges - which means they do have some non-replaceable bio media, but in my opinion bio-balls are a mistake in that role. They have a low surface area - they are great for trickle systems where they can get lots of oxygen, but in a submerged system they offer much lower surface area than other choices like ceramic rings, cell-pore media, or even normal foam like Whisper and Hagen use.
In terms of design, it has the legal advantage of not being a copy of other companies filters, but the bioballs seem like a "sexy" answer to biofiltration by somebody who doesn't understand surface area, flow rates, and void space works under water vs above water...

The filter had no features that would make me select it over all of the other filters on the market - and considering how over-saturated the HOB filter market is right now, I can't see ever allocating shelf space for these filters in a store.

As a customer, I don't see the other thing I look for in an aquarium product - established logistical supply lines.
If I break an impeller or intake tube on a Whisper, Aquaclear, or Penguin filter, I am pretty much confidant that I can find a replacement part at any quality LFS (and even Petsmart). Not to mention finding replacement filter carts.
I had to ask Hi-Q for a box of filter carts, since they only sent me the filters to test and I wanted to test them long term.

Do the filters work - yes. Do I have one running as we speak - yes. Would I go out and buy one (even at the $15 price I saw at the discounter) - no.


and yes, I'm completely ignoring the whole "never change water thing" -- I put that right there with the "lets sell 2.5g or 5g tanks with pictures of multiple goldfish on the package - or 12g or 25g tanks with pictures of marine surgeonfish on the package"

I don't have a very high opinion of marketing people.

[emc7]

Thank Red for the post on the topic.

but, back to the hijack.

Loh, do you just plan on leaving the plants alone in the UG filter, let them deal with the nitrate, and not pick up the plate?. These are rooted plants, right? Not the ones just tied to driftwood. And what do you mean by "tube-type" UG filter?

[COM]

As a marketing person (no offense taken, Red), I see through the claims on this product. To me, this screams of a low-cost system imported system that is being sold mainly to noobs. It doesn't surprise me that they are selling through Odd-Job type stores. There are brokers in the consumer products business who specialize in that type of product and distribution system.

As for the idea that you can eliminate water changes, that's just silly. I suppose that they sell a "magic lid" that prevents evaporation too.

[FatboySkinny]

http://hiq-usa.com/zero_water_exchange_tech.asp
I'm no biologist but I think that the whole magic behind the kit is the mineral blocks. Putting together info I got off of here, I can see how the ECo Magic can work.

Bacterica culturing mineral blocks which provide an anoxic (very low in oxygen) environment where nitrates are converted into harmless nitrogen gas.

I actually read somewhere that some guy name David Lass is doing a product review for FAMA magazine we'll see how it turns out. This system intrigues me, I can't find anything online like it.