My "All-Star" Tank... Will it Work?

[John]

Hopefully over the next two months I'll be recieving, setting up, and cycling my 60 gallon tank. That'll be the biggest tank I've ever had, 55 gallons being in second. Although not considered very big in aquarium standards, 60 gallons is like a dream for me!

So, naturally, I want sure that I've got a very good set up before I make the commitment.

The reason I'm calling it my "All-Star Tank" is because I want to host a wide variety of animals in it. The environment will be semi-aquatic (paludarium A.K.A. aquaterrarium A.K.A. Vivarium), so I will have aquatic, terrestrial, and semi-aquatic animals in it. One of my goals is to have at least one reptile, amphibian, and fish in the tank.

The tank itself is rectangular (but the width is wide enough that it's almost square), 60 gallons, and pretty tall. I have a diagram which I'll post pretty soon that shows how I am thinking of setting the tank up.

Basically, the tank will be 3/5 aquatic. The aquatic section will be in the middle. There will be two terrestrial sections; one on each side of the water.

The one on the left side will be the "amphibian" section. It will be divided from the water with a modified aquarium divider that will extend just above the edge of the bank of the land, made to look natural with sloping gravel. This section will be filled with gravel all the way to the bottom of the tank. It will feature a stream with a waterfall, natural plants, and pipes beneath the substrate. For the stream, a Whisper 20 Gallon external power filter will take the water out of the edge of the aquatic part and dump it out right next door onto the land part into a stream made to look natural with gravel covering up pond liner with holes poked through to naturally filtrate water into the gravel. The "stream" will meander around and have a small "lake" area of slow moving water divided off by a couple of aquatic plants. The stream will continue after that along the bank of the land area and finally curve into a natural waterfall over the edge back into the main tank. Right before the waterfall, a small grate will be placed at the end of the stream to ensure that the feeder guppies, which will live in the lake and stream only, stay in their section. There will be a couple of actual gravel land sections next to the stream a few terrestrial plants will live in these sections. As mentioned before, a few PVC pipes will extend from the main aquatic section into the face of the land section, blocking out gravel will caps on the ends. These pipes will serve as caves to some of the animals.

The terrestrial section on the right side of the tank (opposite of the amphibian terrestrial section) will be home to the anole(s) and tree frog(s). It will take full advantage of the 8 or so inches of height above the aquatic section required for the two terrestrial sections, because it will be arboreal - it'll have tall "trees," which the tree frogs and anoles will like. In actuallity, the trees will just be plants, of course. The two main differences of this terrestrial area from the amphibian one are 1. The substrate will be bark chips, not gravel, and 2. This section's substrate will not extend all the way to the bottom of the tank. Instead, the entire section will just be on a commercial ledge, attached to the glass with suction cups, housed an inch or so above the water level. Hollow logs and sticks will be placed here and there to give the anoles and tree frogs more room to go about their business. I will try to help ensure that the tree frogs and anoles do not fall into the aquatic area by placing slate plates along the edge of the territory. Also, I'll have a few sticks extending over the surface of the water in case the do fall in, so they have a better chance of getting back on land.

The aquatic section, which will be the largest section, will be placed in the middle of the tank, between the amphibian territory and the anole/tree frog territory. It will be filtered by not only the Whisper 20 External Power Filter which will dump the water into the stream on amphibian territory as mentioned above, but also by a much larger filter that has the capacity for a 60 gallon tank. It will be heated by a regular heater. This section will feature areas of heavy planting, a corner full of slate that will form an intricate cave for the cichlids to breed (hopefully), and a couple of nice large rock ornaments for the fish to swim in and around.

So here's my list of creatures right now:
__________________________________________________ ______________
AQUATIC:

some peaceful Cichlids (5-10 or more)
a school of tetras (10 or more)
plus other community fish (around 5)
some Feeder Guppies (around 5 - for the "lake and stream" section only
large aquatic Snails (2 or more)

SEMI-AQUATIC:

Mudskipper (1 at first)
Fire-Bellied Newts (4 or more)
Fiddler Crabs (3 or more)

TERRESTRIAL:

White's Tree Frog (1 at first)
Green Anole (1 at first)
__________________________________________________ ______________

There are a few obvious chances for problems. One is housing the anole and tree frog with all the aquatic animals. Although tree frogs do like to submerse themselves in bowls of water, they do not like to get a lot over their head and will likely drown if they do so according to my research. Same for the anoles, but that's more obvious. I will take measures to help make sure the anoles and tree frogs will stay on land though. Also, the newts and the anoles produce different oils on their skins, and are not recommended to be kept close by as they can poison each other possibly. However, their main habitats are in different parts of the tank, and although I know animals will naturally explore their surroundings, I doubt the Newts will go up in the trees with the anoles and might not even like the bark chips anyways. Another problem is heating. Overall, most of the animals are compatible, but the anoles might prove to be an exception. They might need a reptile heat lamp (the bulbs are usually red while the UVs are usually violet). They definitely do need the UV, but since basically everthing else needs it too that's fine. I will probably modify the hood to allow a heat lamp to sit above the area with anoles with a screen to keep all the animals still in. I'll make sure they also get a cooler area though since they are said to like having one. At night, the anoles like to be heated still, so I'll have a heating pad underneath the whole tank. I will fiddle with the regular aquatic heater (If it is needed) until it delivers the right temperature with the heat pad. Tree frogs are pretty adaptable, so as long as they don't get in the aquatic section no problem there. I doubt the fiddler crabs will be able to catch the tree frogs or anoles, so probably no conflict either way. I guess the only big question is the mudskipper (there's a good chance I won't try one at all). They are pretty different than most of the animals, and I have no idea if anyone's ever tried keeping a mudskipper with newts or fiddler crabs or anoles or snails or tree frogs before, but I hope if I get a small enough species I won't have a problem. Another concern I have is for the newts and mudskipper, because I am worried that if they find there way onto the anole/tree frog side that the bark chips might irritate their wet skin. I think that if the chips are moistened, which they will usually be, the newts and mudskipper won't mind them too much.

I know this sounds like a lot to do with only a 60 gallon tank. But I've looked at it from just about every angle, and it seems like it may work. I will start with only one male anole as a test, and if he doesn't live well in the environment I'll remove him right away to a separate terrarium. If he does die, which I don't think will happen, since I'll remove him as soon as I see bad signs, I'll redeem myself in part by posting my experiment findings online and warning if it did fail extravagantly not to try it yourself.

So, that's my plan. Hopefully somebody will read through all that, lol. I'll post a diagram pretty soon.

Comments or suggestions or warnings will be deeply appreciated, thanks.

[malawi4me2]

Well, it definately sounds like a beautiful set-up!

Your fish list looks a little too much, IMO. I don't really know of any cichlids that would thrive in that type of set-up... You'd probably be better just sticking with a few small fish, like white clouds, or maybe just guppies. Your amphibian/reptile stocking levels sound a little high, also... I'm not sure if you can keep all of those species together. I do know for a fact that your anole will need both a UV (full-spectrum) light (for vitamin D which is needed to properly use the calcium in his diet), and a basking lamp and a spot that stays 85-90F in during the day. That type of lamp may be enough to severly burn your tree-frogs, newts, and mudskippers. Also, the fiddler crabs may eat any small fish that you keep, and (I'm not sure how aggressive they are) they may harm your anole or tree frogs.

I hope this helped a little...

[Fishfirst]

Sounds like you've planned this out but you have a few flaws in the system. 1. Anoles and newts aren't compatible as you said, whats going to keep them from "poisoning" eachother? Anoles find ways to get out of their enclosures. I had one before and once in a while would find him next to the cage if I didn't put the top on just so. Also your anoles, (if big enough) will most likely try to eat the tree frog. Usually if there is a question whether two animals should be kept in the same enclosure, they shouldn't. I think you need to research the animals further, and exactly how are you keeping the bark chips and other substraight from falling into the other enclosures?

[John]

Thanks for your input

I was worried about the heat lamp burning the tree frogs, newts, and mudskippers too. I think I can get away with cutting a small hole (probably 5" by 5") in the lid and putting the heat lamp above that. I'll have the lamp shine down into a small enclosure in the anole/tree frog territory and I'll attempt to keep the newts, tree frogs, and mudskippers out by making it only accesible by the tops of the trees. That and the fact that its not the newt's and mudskipper's territory, the fact that they won't like the bark chip substrate, and the fact that they'll prefer the other side of the tank where it's more wet and humid, hopefully will keep the newts and mudskippers out. The tree frogs will hopefully realize that they don't like the extra heat, and I'll try to make sure if I see them there I won't let them stay there to long.

As far as the fiddler crabs, some species will try to catch the small fish (especially the guppies in the stream and lake area) but some of the more common species available are more peaceful and will only attack things that move slow and are smaller than them. They probably won't be able to catch the anoles and tree frogs (if they even go over to that section), and they most likely won't want to anyway.

I realized after I wrote all that that I was getting a little too excited and I put down that I would try to house 5-10 cichlids. In reality, if I find a peaceful species that will like those conditions, I will probably only have about 5 at the most, plus a few community fish and a school of tetras. I'm going to have two filters (Whisper 60 and Whisper 20 - the 20 feeds the stream) and possibly a 3rd (whisper Micro Filter) to top it off. I'm guessing that the water area is going to be about 40 gallons, and I think that if I do regular water changes I'll be able to accomodate those fish. As far as the other animals, I'm looking at a max of 2 anoles (male and female), but probably only 1; 1 mudskipper, 3 Fiddlers, 3 Newts, and two large aquatic Snails. That's at maximum, and It'll probably be less than that.

Overally, I think with some adjustments, and luck, I might be able to pull it off.

Thanks again for your help.

Please more comments!

[John]

Hi Fishfirst, thanks for replying to the message.

I've read in many places about people succesfully keeping Fire-Bellied Newts and Green Anoles in the same cage, sometimes in enclosures even smaller than mine. There is a chance that they might poison each other, but its smaller than you would think, since their skins secrete very similar toxins. Like I said, I'm only going to start with one anole as an experiment. If it isn't going well, I'll remove him right away to a different cage. I'll attempt to make sure nothing as serious as one of the animals dying occurs, but if the anole dies somehow die, I'll try to redeem myself by spreading word that keeping anoles and fire-bellied newts isn't a good idea. With nature there are always acceptions, and nothing's definite. I'm taking a chance, and I don't want the anole or newts to die, but I think that since there's only a small chance of that, I can try it. I'm accomadating all the animals and making sure there's almost no chance of problems (although there always is a problem or two that you don't think of).

As far as the anoles eating the White's Tree Frog, I've read that since the tree frogs are notoriously known for getting fat, the anoles won't attempt to eat them as they are truly pretty big. The anoles probably will leave it alone since they'll sort of be separated, and since the tree frog will look intimidating to them if I get a big one.

Also, I doubt the anoles will try to get to the other side of the tank more than once or twice. If they do get to the other side (which they probably will), then they won't stay long since they'll favor the conditions on their side. That's all if they even get over the big lake in the middle of the tank (although they might be able to climb across the sides of the tank - it might be hard since the air will have a lot of evaporation). As far as getting out of the tank itself, that's a risk whenever you keep anoles, isn't it?

Lastly, although I do expect to find a few bark chips in the water area every other day, I doubt it'll be a problem. I'm going to have slate rocks that will help keep the anoles and tree frog from bringing them over the edge and dropping them into the water. Unless the tree frog orders a dump truck to pick up the bark chips and excavate them into the water section, I'm not too worried.
This is all an experiment. If it goes wrong, I'll remove the animals and just use the tank for simpler set ups. But I have done the research and I think that with a little luck I'll be able to create this tank. If so, it'll be awesome!

[Fishfirst]

well lemmie know how it goes.

[fishboy]

when you going to post that diagram? i want to see this i can't visualize it

[John]

Well, here's my badly done paint diagram:

[Niki2105]

Im with fishboy, i would like to see a diagram to see what it should look like. To me it sounds a little complicated and im not convinced that your tank will be big enough for all you want to do with it.

[John]

Read the post above.

[John]

So what does everybody think?

[TylerFlom89]

do you have a digital? If you do, please post pictures as you go, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THIS!!!! It sounds awsome!!!

[Ownager2004]

yeah i would definately like to see some pictures of this

[John]

Thanks for replying! ****I'm really excited about this whole thing. ****

I've been talking about my tanks in my user journal in the user journals forum under "John's Jungle." ****I just found out that I'm going to get a small fish room in my basement (about 10' x 10') and this project will be set up in there. ****Hopefully, I'll start constructing the room in two weeks, and I can start setting up the tanks in maybe as little as a month! ****

I will definitely take pics with my digital cam as well, and I'll post them in that user journal. ****I'll post pics of this tank in this thread also. ****You guys can also reply in my user journal if you want (at least I think you can - I'm not sure if there's a rule about replying in the journals - you're welcome to if you want ).

Thanks for showing interest in this

[Lydia]

that sounds really neat....i have no clue as to whether or not it would work, but i really want to see pictures!!!!!

[John]

I'll post the first pictures of the fish room hopefully on Sunday. Right now, it's just a messy basement, so it won't be much to look at, but it will be fun to see the progress that's made over the next two months or so.

[Fishfirst]

I almost totally spaced on one issue. The waterfall! Remember the suction power of your filter is only so great. You might not get the results you want from it.

[John]

Hey Fishfirst, nice to see someone from Wisconsin! I'm from Milwaukee myself.

Well, the filter in question has a continuous suction rate (not sure how many gallons per hour) that is pretty good. It's a relatively new Whisper 20, and it seems like it's going to be pretty efficient over the years. The filter just picks up the water with the intake tube, then the water gets filtered through a spongy filter cartridge, then drops back into the tank. There will be a stream (constructed from pond liner, just to keep drainage into the gravel at a minimum) underneath the overflow, and I'll make sure it catches all the water. Hopefully, that will simulate a current down the stream (and eventually over the edge into the waterfall), but even if there isn't a current the water will naturally go over the edge (since there's nothing holding it back). It's just a question of whether it will look like a good waterfall due to the strength of the current from the filter - it may just dribble down the edge. If it does, it's not a big deal, it just won't look as good. I've taken the liberty to draw another badly done diagram, this time focusing on the stream & waterfall:

[cucci67]

DO NOt USE A REPTILE HEAT LAMP! I had anolesat once, and they will be fried by a heat lamp. I bought book after book after book on anoles, and every one said to never use a heat lamp. I am not sure about a UV light, as I did not have one, and the pet store people said it is not neccessary as long as they are getting some form of light.

[Fishfirst]

hahah this post is like 4 months old John, did it work?