New world/ Old world water parameters.

ron v · 12-02-2005, 07:26 AM

First of all, Dustin I'm sorry if you think I am trying to argue with you. I actually think your posts are very insightfull and valuable to this forum. My response to you in the other thread was sort of a "one liner" ( I was in a hurry at the time). I should have gone into more detail. I would never suggest that C/A fishes should be kept with African fishes. I said that PH was similar ( Lake Malawi vs. Central America ). Which is TRUE! A lot of hobbyst ( even the ones that are interested in water parameters ) tend to lump fish into two groups. Old world ( Africa ) and New world ( the Americas). You hear people say " I'm going to start an African Cichlid tank" and they end up with some mbuna and some jewel cichlids. Both are "African" but have about as diverse water requirements as is possible. The truth is that there are hard water from Africa as well as America and soft water fish from Africa and America. Cichlids (especially) can't be grouped like that. The PH in lake Malawi tends to be between 8.0 and 8.3 or so and moderately hard. The lakes in Central America tend to be about 8. Maybe not quite as high, but close. Lake Tanganyika has water that is closer to 9 and much harder... Still water ( lakes ) tend to have harder water with a higher PH and rivers and streams have softer more acid water. This is true in both Africa and Central America. Most of Central America has hard water but there are some small streams that have softer water. The African rift lakes have hard water but the West African rivers and streams ( home of jewels and kribs ) have soft water. Even in West Africa... Lake Bermin in Cameroon has harder water.
Back to Lake Malawi and Central America.... A group of mbuna in an aquarium with a PH of 8 would do fine. A Jack Dempsey in an Aquarium with a PH of 8 would also do fine. Would it be OK to keep them together? No way!!!! Not because of the water parameters, but because of behavior. They have evolved a different set of ( body language ) signals. They don't understand each other. Here again, we need to research all the needs of our pets and do the best we can to provide....... Peace!

**Osiris** · 12-02-2005, 08:42 AM

Don't forget about pleco's, completely different water requirements but they breed like rabbits in african type waters lol. I've kept convicts before(when i was a novice) with mbuna, some aggresion but of course the tank was overstocked, got along fine. But i wouldn't go putting a oscar with pea****s or mbuna or something along those lines.

Remember, a majority of the time it is better to leave your ph where it is at, exception would be more delicate species, as altering your ph constantly is harder then naturally, only takes one water change that you didnt add back in your ph altering chemicals, to take out the fish due to ph shock.

ron v · 12-02-2005, 08:55 AM

I agree totally. Trying to alter water chemistry is a disaster waiting to happen. Check your local water and choose fish that will fit. Life will be much easier. Many people choose the fish and then worry about the water....

**Cichlid Man** · 12-02-2005, 09:35 AM

Basically all cichlids can be acclimatized to live in the same water conditions, but they won't thrive and many will be more prone to disease. That's why I always suggest not mixing cichlids. If you want to mix cichlids there are a few groups that can successfully live together, however, not only water quality has to be taken into account, there are many other factors you have to think about including compatability, diet requirements, tank space, and security needs, i.e. caves/holes to hide in etc when trying out different combitations of cichlid groups.
Here are a few examples of sucessful setups that have worked with cichlids from differing habitats. Please note that these will only work if ample space is given for each individual fish with numerous hiding places to stake out territories:

Malawi mbuna-tanganikan lamps
Malawi haps-tankanikan lamps
central american-neutral/hard water river african cichlids.
South american-soft water african cichlids like kribs

There are exeptions however, as central american and rift lake africans can be kept together provided the american cichlids are a lot larger than the africans as even though central american cichlids are territorial, if you notice, african cichlids particulary mbuna tend to be more aggressive when fighting and are a lot more endured to win than most central american cichlids.
So if the tank is big enough with enough of hiding places, and the central americans can be trusted to hold there own against the malawis/tanganikans, then it can be done.
REMEMBER: When keeping cichlids, no matter what type, there has to be a certain amount of knowledge in the owner to realise when things aren't quite right, and they must be able to recognise some of the problems which may occur in a cichlid community such as bullying and malnourishment of the less brave cichlids.
Even though I say keeping Central Americans and malawis in the same setup insn't reccomended, I actually have a 100L tank with both these cichlids in. The pair of smaller convicts have staken out a terriotory in a rock cave, and two other cichlids, an aggressive central american cichlid called a pygmy jade-eyed cichlid and a south american cichlid called a port acara can handle the busy life of the more aggressive malawis. Might I add that the American cichlids are at least twice the size of the Malawis, and in the hands of an unexperienced cichlid handler may suscumb to a problem of some kind such as bullying of either the americans, africans, or even problems between the same group of fish which is more common.
What ever you decide to keep, the most important thing of all when setting up a tank is to research every species you would like to have, and plan ahead before buying.
Good luck.

**Fishfirst** · 12-02-2005, 09:55 AM

Definately some insight for some non-cichliders here... enlightened me on a few things, thanks guys

DUSTIN323 · 12-02-2005, 10:15 AM

Ok Ron I realize that that the water parameters vary in both countries that's why some fish prefer a lower ph than others that are from the same lake. Like the Mbuna it could live in an aquarium setup for a jack dempsey. But with this said wouldn't this contradict what you said on another thread: Posted by Ron V.............................
"he truth is that fish will try to adapt to whatever water they are in. They don't have much choice, do they? Some fish can do this better than others. You said that PH is more of a concern "if you want to breed them". Think about that for a second. Fish live to survive, eat and reproduce. That's about all they have. So if they are not comfortable enough to spawn, then they have a problem. It's our job as hobbyist to find out as much as we can about our fish and to make them as comfortable as possible."

I think as a general statement you can't say "The waters of Lake Malwai are similar to Central America water." and MP agreed with me here though they could adapt to each other's settings in nature they're not that similar though you could find place to place where a body of water is very similar to a part of Lake Malawai. I was looking out for the newcomers here because that statement could very much confuse a new comer and I don't feel like what you put on the other thread was a good general statement. Though I agree with most if not all of what you're saying on this thread just not that post you made but like you said you were in a rush. My concerns were it sounded like you were contradicting another statement as I put above and confusion of a newcomer

ron v · 12-02-2005, 10:23 AM

[quote=Cichlid Man I actually have a 100L tank with both these cichlids in. The pair of smaller convicts have staken out a terriotory in a rock cave, and two other cichlids, an aggressive central american cichlid called a pygmy jade-eyed cichlid and a south american cichlid called a port acara can handle the busy life of the more aggressive malawis.

Ouch...LOL. ...I would say, at best, the C/A fish and the malawis have learned to ignore each other. Zero natural interaction between them. I would think that the communications they have with each other is limited to..."gosh, you are bigger than me and you just bit me on the fanny, so I'm outta here!" Am I right?..... It can work, and it does... but is it best?... I don't know maybe I'm to much of a purist. At least the C/A and malawi's enjoy the same water parameters.... But the port cichlid???? Come on now Cichlid man. You know better than that... LOL. I'm teasing of course. Y'all please forgive me.

What ever you decide to keep, the most important thing of all when setting up a tank is to research every species you would like to have, and plan ahead before buying.
Good luck.

[/QUOTE]

Now that...I can agree with...

**Cichlid Man** · 12-02-2005, 10:28 AM

My pH is 7.5 so none of the fish really mind. Non of the American cichlids bother the malawis as they are no threat. I've never seen the bigger fish ever take an interest in the smaller shoal of malawi auratus.

ron v · 12-02-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUSTIN323

I think as a general statement you can't say "The waters of Lake Malwai are similar to Central America water."

Yes I can.... I did.... and I stand by it... Dustin, now I think you are wanting to argue with me... I can see where my original post could have rubbed you the wrong way. Again, I'm sorry, but don't be defensive about it. I don't see any contradiction, at all, in my posts...Please, let's move on... There is no right or wrong answer here. It's all opinion based on what we read anyway... I've never tested the PH of Lake Malawi. Probably 99% of what little I know about fish, I learned from someone else. And, a lot of that is probable wrong.

**Cichlid Man** · 12-02-2005, 10:56 AM

At least you can admit you are wrong, that's the main thing, well done.

And Dustin, I don't think that you read my second from last post, as the hard water lakes of Central American and Lake Malawi have mostly the same substances disolved in them including limestone from underwater residue which makes them have a pH of around 8.

**Osiris** · 12-02-2005, 11:21 AM

I'll admit, i forgot my anniversary last year.

ron v · 12-02-2005, 11:33 AM

LOL...Yeah, when I was 22, I forgot my anniversity once. I'll bet you don't ever forget your's again... either.
What's the old saying...."In order to be old and wise, you must once be young and foolish".

DUSTIN323 · 12-02-2005, 11:39 AM

No Ron I'm not trying to argue with you I was just trying to point that out.

And you're right the down bottom truth is there is no 100% right way you have your way I have mine that's how it goes.

**Cichlid Man** · 12-02-2005, 12:17 PM

Yes, well some ways are better than others.

12-02-2005, 07:26 AM	#1
ron v Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Alabama Age: 61 Posts: 1,123	New world/ Old world water parameters. First of all, Dustin I'm sorry if you think I am trying to argue with you. I actually think your posts are very insightfull and valuable to this forum. My response to you in the other thread was sort of a "one liner" ( I was in a hurry at the time). I should have gone into more detail. I would never suggest that C/A fishes should be kept with African fishes. I said that PH was similar ( Lake Malawi vs. Central America ). Which is TRUE! A lot of hobbyst ( even the ones that are interested in water parameters ) tend to lump fish into two groups. Old world ( Africa ) and New world ( the Americas). You hear people say " I'm going to start an African Cichlid tank" and they end up with some mbuna and some jewel cichlids. Both are "African" but have about as diverse water requirements as is possible. The truth is that there are hard water from Africa as well as America and soft water fish from Africa and America. Cichlids (especially) can't be grouped like that. The PH in lake Malawi tends to be between 8.0 and 8.3 or so and moderately hard. The lakes in Central America tend to be about 8. Maybe not quite as high, but close. Lake Tanganyika has water that is closer to 9 and much harder... Still water ( lakes ) tend to have harder water with a higher PH and rivers and streams have softer more acid water. This is true in both Africa and Central America. Most of Central America has hard water but there are some small streams that have softer water. The African rift lakes have hard water but the West African rivers and streams ( home of jewels and kribs ) have soft water. Even in West Africa... Lake Bermin in Cameroon has harder water. Back to Lake Malawi and Central America.... A group of mbuna in an aquarium with a PH of 8 would do fine. A Jack Dempsey in an Aquarium with a PH of 8 would also do fine. Would it be OK to keep them together? No way!!!! Not because of the water parameters, but because of behavior. They have evolved a different set of ( body language ) signals. They don't understand each other. Here again, we need to research all the needs of our pets and do the best we can to provide....... Peace!

12-02-2005, 08:42 AM	#2
Osiris Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Age: 25 Posts: 3,714	Don't forget about pleco's, completely different water requirements but they breed like rabbits in african type waters lol. I've kept convicts before(when i was a novice) with mbuna, some aggresion but of course the tank was overstocked, got along fine. But i wouldn't go putting a oscar with pea**s or mbuna or something along those lines. Remember, a majority of the time it is better to leave your ph where it is at, exception would be more delicate species, as altering your ph constantly is harder then naturally, only takes one water change that you didnt add back in your ph altering chemicals, to take out the fish due to ph shock. __________________ Reality is for people who can't handle Science-Fiction**

12-02-2005, 09:35 AM	#4
Cichlid Man Super moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,100	Basically all cichlids can be acclimatized to live in the same water conditions, but they won't thrive and many will be more prone to disease. That's why I always suggest not mixing cichlids. If you want to mix cichlids there are a few groups that can successfully live together, however, not only water quality has to be taken into account, there are many other factors you have to think about including compatability, diet requirements, tank space, and security needs, i.e. caves/holes to hide in etc when trying out different combitations of cichlid groups. Here are a few examples of sucessful setups that have worked with cichlids from differing habitats. Please note that these will only work if ample space is given for each individual fish with numerous hiding places to stake out territories: Malawi mbuna-tanganikan lamps Malawi haps-tankanikan lamps central american-neutral/hard water river african cichlids. South american-soft water african cichlids like kribs There are exeptions however, as central american and rift lake africans can be kept together provided the american cichlids are a lot larger than the africans as even though central american cichlids are territorial, if you notice, african cichlids particulary mbuna tend to be more aggressive when fighting and are a lot more endured to win than most central american cichlids. So if the tank is big enough with enough of hiding places, and the central americans can be trusted to hold there own against the malawis/tanganikans, then it can be done. REMEMBER: When keeping cichlids, no matter what type, there has to be a certain amount of knowledge in the owner to realise when things aren't quite right, and they must be able to recognise some of the problems which may occur in a cichlid community such as bullying and malnourishment of the less brave cichlids. Even though I say keeping Central Americans and malawis in the same setup insn't reccomended, I actually have a 100L tank with both these cichlids in. The pair of smaller convicts have staken out a terriotory in a rock cave, and two other cichlids, an aggressive central american cichlid called a pygmy jade-eyed cichlid and a south american cichlid called a port acara can handle the busy life of the more aggressive malawis. Might I add that the American cichlids are at least twice the size of the Malawis, and in the hands of an unexperienced cichlid handler may suscumb to a problem of some kind such as bullying of either the americans, africans, or even problems between the same group of fish which is more common. What ever you decide to keep, the most important thing of all when setting up a tank is to research every species you would like to have, and plan ahead before buying. Good luck. __________________ If you have a big enough tank with enough hiding places, pH of around 7, you can keep virtually any fish together as long as all the fish are around the same size and these two groups of fish are avioded: Serrasalmus Tetradon(figure eights and dwarfs are the exception). I keep a successful community of fish in a 4 foot tank including the following families: Cichlids, tetras, loaches, gouramis, barbs, rainbows, livebearers, killiefish, catfish, puffers. Last edited by Cichlid Man; 12-02-2005 at 09:39 AM.

12-02-2005, 09:55 AM	#5
Fishfirst Fish Guru Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Wisconsin Age: 24 Posts: 3,543	Definately some insight for some non-cichliders here... enlightened me on a few things, thanks guys __________________ 210 Gal Reef w/ 55 Gallon Sump/Fuge, 125 Gal Fish Only, 65 Gal Seahorse-29 Gallon Sump, 55 Gal FOWLR, 54 Gal Corner FW Community, 20 Gal Nano FOWLR, 55 Gal Piranha, 29 gallon QT "All the yellow tangs and clownfish in the world can't save you now! hahahah" Peter from Family Guy

12-02-2005, 10:15 AM	#6
DUSTIN323 ~/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\~ Join Date: Sep 2005 Age: 20 Posts: 522	Ok Ron I realize that that the water parameters vary in both countries that's why some fish prefer a lower ph than others that are from the same lake. Like the Mbuna it could live in an aquarium setup for a jack dempsey. But with this said wouldn't this contradict what you said on another thread: Posted by Ron V............................. "he truth is that fish will try to adapt to whatever water they are in. They don't have much choice, do they? Some fish can do this better than others. You said that PH is more of a concern "if you want to breed them". Think about that for a second. Fish live to survive, eat and reproduce. That's about all they have. So if they are not comfortable enough to spawn, then they have a problem. It's our job as hobbyist to find out as much as we can about our fish and to make them as comfortable as possible." I think as a general statement you can't say "The waters of Lake Malwai are similar to Central America water." and MP agreed with me here though they could adapt to each other's settings in nature they're not that similar though you could find place to place where a body of water is very similar to a part of Lake Malawai. I was looking out for the newcomers here because that statement could very much confuse a new comer and I don't feel like what you put on the other thread was a good general statement. Though I agree with most if not all of what you're saying on this thread just not that post you made but like you said you were in a rush. My concerns were it sounded like you were contradicting another statement as I put above and confusion of a newcomer __________________ Gen1Performance.com Gen 1 Performance Forum

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12-02-2005, 08:55 AM	#3
ron v Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Alabama Age: 61 Posts: 1,123	I agree totally. Trying to alter water chemistry is a disaster waiting to happen. Check your local water and choose fish that will fit. Life will be much easier. Many people choose the fish and then worry about the water....

12-02-2005, 10:23 AM	#7
ron v Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Alabama Age: 61 Posts: 1,123	[quote=Cichlid Man I actually have a 100L tank with both these cichlids in. The pair of smaller convicts have staken out a terriotory in a rock cave, and two other cichlids, an aggressive central american cichlid called a pygmy jade-eyed cichlid and a south american cichlid called a port acara can handle the busy life of the more aggressive malawis. Ouch...LOL. ...I would say, at best, the C/A fish and the malawis have learned to ignore each other. Zero natural interaction between them. I would think that the communications they have with each other is limited to..."gosh, you are bigger than me and you just bit me on the fanny, so I'm outta here!" Am I right?..... It can work, and it does... but is it best?... I don't know maybe I'm to much of a purist. At least the C/A and malawi's enjoy the same water parameters.... But the port cichlid???? Come on now Cichlid man. You know better than that... LOL. I'm teasing of course. Y'all please forgive me. What ever you decide to keep, the most important thing of all when setting up a tank is to research every species you would like to have, and plan ahead before buying. Good luck.[/QUOTE] Now that...I can agree with...

12-02-2005, 10:28 AM	#8
Cichlid Man Super moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,100	My pH is 7.5 so none of the fish really mind. Non of the American cichlids bother the malawis as they are no threat. I've never seen the bigger fish ever take an interest in the smaller shoal of malawi auratus. __________________ If you have a big enough tank with enough hiding places, pH of around 7, you can keep virtually any fish together as long as all the fish are around the same size and these two groups of fish are avioded: Serrasalmus Tetradon(figure eights and dwarfs are the exception). I keep a successful community of fish in a 4 foot tank including the following families: Cichlids, tetras, loaches, gouramis, barbs, rainbows, livebearers, killiefish, catfish, puffers.

12-02-2005, 10:56 AM	#10
Cichlid Man Super moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,100	At least you can admit you are wrong, that's the main thing, well done. And Dustin, I don't think that you read my second from last post, as the hard water lakes of Central American and Lake Malawi have mostly the same substances disolved in them including limestone from underwater residue which makes them have a pH of around 8. __________________ If you have a big enough tank with enough hiding places, pH of around 7, you can keep virtually any fish together as long as all the fish are around the same size and these two groups of fish are avioded: Serrasalmus Tetradon(figure eights and dwarfs are the exception). I keep a successful community of fish in a 4 foot tank including the following families: Cichlids, tetras, loaches, gouramis, barbs, rainbows, livebearers, killiefish, catfish, puffers. Last edited by Cichlid Man; 12-02-2005 at 10:59 AM.

12-02-2005, 11:21 AM	#11
Osiris Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Wisconsin Age: 25 Posts: 3,714	I'll admit, i forgot my anniversary last year. __________________ Reality is for people who can't handle Science-Fiction

12-02-2005, 11:33 AM	#12
ron v Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Alabama Age: 61 Posts: 1,123	LOL...Yeah, when I was 22, I forgot my anniversity once. I'll bet you don't ever forget your's again... either. What's the old saying...."In order to be old and wise, you must once be young and foolish".

12-02-2005, 11:39 AM	#13
DUSTIN323 ~/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\~ Join Date: Sep 2005 Age: 20 Posts: 522	No Ron I'm not trying to argue with you I was just trying to point that out. And you're right the down bottom truth is there is no 100% right way you have your way I have mine that's how it goes. __________________ Gen1Performance.com Gen 1 Performance Forum Last edited by DUSTIN323; 12-02-2005 at 11:42 AM.

12-02-2005, 12:17 PM	#14
Cichlid Man Super moderator Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,100	Yes, well some ways are better than others. __________________ If you have a big enough tank with enough hiding places, pH of around 7, you can keep virtually any fish together as long as all the fish are around the same size and these two groups of fish are avioded: Serrasalmus Tetradon(figure eights and dwarfs are the exception). I keep a successful community of fish in a 4 foot tank including the following families: Cichlids, tetras, loaches, gouramis, barbs, rainbows, livebearers, killiefish, catfish, puffers.

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