Use Water Clarifier and all fish dead?

[MightyMouse]

Well, not all fish .. I managed to save one..
I had 1 clown, 1 coral beauty angel and 1 sailfin tang and two damsels.

This is the 3rd set of fish I've gone through and it seems without warning at all.
Everything was fine, the fish have been in there for 1 month now and they were healthy and eating like crazy. The water was a little dirty/clouded, so I added the water clarifier.. The first to times the fish died I did a water change first. I thought it might have had something to do with that.. (10% changes)..
This last time it was just the clarifier and when I woke up this morning all of my fish were on the bottom of the tank, except one little damsel who was bobbing at the top of the tank. .. 1 dead emerald crab and 1 dead peppermint shrimp as well.
The other peppermint shrimp i had in the tank was on his death bed as well. He was upside down and not responsive to anything..
I don't have a spare tank or anything so I got some fresh tap water, mixed in the salt, checked the temp.. it was a bit low so I tossed in my heater and waited..
during this wait the lone damsel started to succome to his doom and stopped moving.. he fell to the bottom of the tank.. I pulled him out and put him in the colder water but at the top of it while still in the net.. .. he seemed to be doing a little better.. his color started to brighten up.. he started to move a little..
I left him in the net like that for about 3 minutes.. We're talking about 2 gallons of water here.. by then it was warm enough for the fish so I set him free from the net.. he was swimming.. he wasn't bobbing or doing anything crazy.. Then I pulled out the peppermint shrimp.. This guy was dead from what I could tell.. I dropped him in the bucket o' freshness and he dropped to the bottom, upside down.. I left him alone and started after my 2 living emerald crab and all 5 of my still living hermit crab.. I tossed them in ..
then pulled the shrimp out, since he was dead.. .. I gave him a good look while he was out of the water and his legs started moving... I tossed him back in the bucket and he started to walk.. .. 1 hour later he was already up the water heater and eating.. The same goes for all of my fish..
All that's changed was the removal of a tank ornament small vaccuum of the substrate.. 3% water at best, and the addition of the wonerful topfin Water Clarifier (safe for fresh and saltwater aquariums)..
Any ideas if this stuff killed my fish?
to answer any questions.. ..
46Gallon tank, no protein skimmer or anything, just a canister filter (Fluval 303).
I added 4ml of the clarifier directions say to add 1ml per 10gal. I figured 4 would suffice..
I changed my carbon this morning and I'm letting it filter out the rest of the clarifier because I need to move my fish, crab and shrimp back before they all die from lack of oxigen or something..
Tank has been setup for 3 months has about 6lbs of live rock and 2" of substrate(not enough I know.. I'm working on getting more now that the tank is empty)..
Please let me know what you think..

PS- I called PetSmart (makers of TopFin) and explained what happened, they seemed receptive and they're going to have their HQ call me back.. I lost over $100.00 in fish this last go around, about $200 total so far...

[harif87]

What were your water conditions (ammo, nitrate, temp etc)?
What exactly was in this water clarifier? Ive never heard of using "water clarifiers" except for carbon..
How big is your tank?
How often do you feed? How much do you feed?
What else is in the tank?
Whens the last time you did a water change?


Also, i would do alot more research before considering buying new fish. You obviously have alot to learn (which isnt neccessarily a bad thing). Dont go sacrificing livestock when you can save them by reading a little.

[CollegeReefer]

Alright, let see if we can give you a hand. Lossing fish is never a good thing and loosing fish multiple times is even worse. I will first like to say that i doubt it is the water you were using or the water clairifier. But we will need some more information first.

You said that your tank has been set up 3 months, how long did you cycle your tank for? How long after that did you had your clean up crew (CUC) and how long after that did you indroduce your first fish? What fish did you add first? How long after your first set deaths did you had the new fish? Once again what fish did you add and when. One those fish died how long did you wait after that and once again what order did you put the fish in? This will help in indentify possible causes.

What do you keep your saltinity at? What do you use to check it. What have your ammonia, nitrates and nitrites been at? What is your temp at? Does your temp change alot or is it constant? These few things can tell a lot about your tank.

It is my guess that it has too do with your water chemestry and the stress of your fish. Damsels are really aggrisive and though small will pick on all of the other fish especially if they were introduced first. I always stear new hobbiest away from damsels. Your Salifin Tang needs to be in at least a 125 gallon tank. Haveing a stressed out fish can cause many problem in a tank and when i fish is in too small of a tank that causes stress.

You said your water was cloudy which is never a good sign. With such a small tank and no protein skimmer i would be doing bi-weekly 20% water changes. With your live rock, your canister filter isn't really doing much by the way.

The last thing i would like to point out is that your fish dieing is most likely your fault. Some neglect on your behalf most likely caused your tank to crash 3 times. I am not trying to sound mean, but when you loose all fish, you don't just add new ones, you need to figure out what you did. Seeing that you addid three sets of fish in the last 3 months shows me that you have not taken the time to learn why. Even if it did have to do with the water you were using, after the first time you lost a fish, you would have figured that out. Also seeing that you had a tang that needs a 125 gallon tank in your 45 gallon tank show me that you have done very little reading on your fish before adding them. How much reading have you done on this hobby?

Once we figure out exactly what caused your tank to crash, i will strongly recommend that you do not add any more fish to the tank for a while. use this time to read up on fish you would like to keep and find out what their needs are. I hope you don't take what i said as mean, but it does sadden me and others on this forum that so many fish have died in your tank.

[MightyMouse]

My Tang is rather small and after talking to the guys at the lfs they said that the fish will be fine in a 46Gal tank, if it starts to get too big I can sell it back. As goes the water quality I checked Alk. Amonia, ph, Nitrates, Nitriites. I don't remember the exact readings, but they all matched the color bars perfect, both when i checked them and when my LFS checked them. The fish aren't all dead, the one I pulled out of the tank is alive as well as 2 emerald crab and 5 small .. very small.. hermit crabs, and one pep. shrimp.
The first fish to be introduced this last go around was a damsel. My tank, I'm mistaken, has been setup for much more than 3 months. I let it cycle for 8 weeks with just live rock, each time the fish died I let it stand with the filters going for about 2-3 weeks. I introduce a small damsel first each time because each time all the water checks I've done showed good water (pH, Nitrites, Nitrates, Alk. and Amonia). I figured if I was going to subject a fish to the water that might be poluted I would use a $4.00 fish first. I don't doubt I may have done something wrong, but for all my fish to be fine one day and dead the next strikes me as odd.
I was feeding them frozen brine, I would put 1 full cube in a glass full of the tank water and pour that water in slowly until they had eaten all they could in 2 min. I did this twice daily.
The canister filter had the carbon changed monthly.

[Fishfirst]

1st off I'd like you to understand that the LFS is there to make money, and thats just what they are doing when they suggest certain fish (especially ones that will outgrow and be chronically stressed in the size tank you have) and most likely, too many fish at once or too many fish too fast. 2ndly but most definately not the cause of your fishes immediate death but still something to point out is "men cannot live on bread alone" in other words, your brine shrimp two times daily is hardly a good diet for any of your fish much less the tang who needs fresh seaweed daily. Pick a flake food, at least two different types of frozen food such as mysis shrimp, krill, cyclopse, emerald entree, clam, squid, ect, and at least one veggie food such as spirulina algae, kelp pellets, or seaweed, and alternate between these.

My guess for your fish dieing is more due to the fact that you added fish too fast or too many at once or you are feeding too much (two cubes of brine shrimp/day can do that) creating ammonia problems and health problems for your fish. Ammonia and nitrite readings should be 0 ALWAYS. So in order to get a better picture of what is going on... I would go through your tank history with us. When was it setup, when did you add the liverock, when did you add your first fish (did you add more than one?), when did you add your second fish ect, when did your first set of fish die, when did you add the second set of fish and in what order and how long appart, when did the second set of fish die, how long did it take you to add the third set of fish after the second set had died?

you get the picture?

a timeline can show crittical errors in fish husbandry.
lastly, if you are changing your filters every month, it can "set the clock back" on your tank... I would NOT remove the filters for months especially if your adding fish at that point in time.

The fish definately sound like theyve been through ammonia poisoning, as well as the invertebrates.

[Fishfirst]

PS - some good reading for this type of situation

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/gene...le-basics.html

and just a tip, deep sand beds are usually not the smartest thing for a beginner to tackle. You'll probably do better with the sand bed you have now (1-2") if your fish store suggested to use crushed coral... find a new fish store.

[MightyMouse]

Thank you for the link. I will work on piecing together a timeline, and in the mean time I will read any links you send my way.. I'd say my biggest problem with my inability to care for these fish is that there is almost too much information on the net. Much of which contradicts other information. I'll be happy to read from a link that someone has provided and says it's a good link. I'm definately not adding fish for another couple of months either.. ..
I do, however, still find it a touch odd that all three times the tank "failed" it was the morning after I added that darned "water clarifier" to the tank.
Oh, and when I said cloudy it was more like.. just dirty looking water.. the clarifier is supposed to bond with anything floating in the water so that it can be sucked down by the filter..
When i said I changed my carbon filter I mean just the carbon, not the foam or the white cubes (I'm not really sure what they are).
The fish have survived water changes with no problem, and my freshwater fish (although not the same in practice, but the same in principal) have done fine since the very first fish.. (he's the first fish I ever bought and still kicking 2 years later).
I still have the delemna of what's left. The fish, crab and shrimp that are left are still alive and well in the "bucket".. I have a heater in there, but no filter. I'm going to get a small filter for it today so they can survive a couple of days in there.. Since I didn't have time to care for the bucket this morning I had my wife periodically kinda stir the pot to .. i have her just stir it gentally with the heater and pull the heater up and down to make sure some O2 gets to the bottom of it. The fish and others are still doing great she said. They're swimming happy and healthy looking.
I set up the tank though.. let it sit for 3 days and talked to a person at the "petco".. .. big mistake.. I bought two damsels, put them in there and they died a week later.. I started reading.. I found out about cycling and all.. I emptied the tank, replaced filters and started over. I put 3lbs of live rock in and let the tank sit.. I turned the light on in the day, off at night..
tank looked nice.. but nothing going on..
watched .. .. Nitrates, nitrites and amonia was off the chart.. .. definately not good for fish, but I didn't have any..
I waited.. .. waited.. nothing seemed to be getting any better.. I kept reading.. I knew this was a good thing, my tank was cycling..
One day it got a lot better, but not perfect.. .. then it got worse again.. then.. bam.. it was all cleared up.. I have the color charts and whatever the BEST one was for everything is where I was.. pH was like 8.4 I think.. can't remember if that's right.. dark purple on the color chart.. Amonia was 0, nitrites and trates were 0 also. As I said I don't remember all the numbers, but I do check the water at least weekly and compare to the color chart that came with the test kits...
Anyway.. it was about 6 weeks in when it was all clear.. I waited 2 more weeks just in case..
I added two damsels (because they're cheep) they were fine.. All was well .. ..
I cleaned the tank 1 week later.. 20% change.. the water was all clouded so I added the infamous "water clarifier"..
it was about 6pm (most gets done at this time because its when i get back from work).. Mistake 1.. I should do this on Saturday so i can monitor the fish for a longer period of time..

..
anyway.. next morning.. dead..
brought the water to the LFS.. Water was perfect....
2 weeks later.. all looked ok.. 1 damsel.. ..
2 weeks later.. still looked ok.. 1 clown
1 week later.. cleaned the tank.. looked cloudy. added the "clarifier"..
next morning.. dead... tested water.. looked perfect still.
2 weeks later.. all looked well. ..
1 more damsel.. 2 weeks later.. another damsel..
few days later cleaned tank..
few more days later 1 clown fish..
2 weeks later cleaned tank..
3 weeks later 1 beauty angel
2 weeks later 1 tang..
1 week later, added some clarifier..
next morning.. DEAD..
Checked the water .. looked fine.
In between the weeks during the first batch of the last set of fish I added a shrimp.. (I bought 1, my daughter wanted the smallest weekest one they had so the lady gave it to me figuring it'd just die no matter where it was.. it lived for the duration of the the rest of the fish.. I'd say 4 weeks).
I was also adding hermit crab and an emerald crab per week during the last set.. ..
I don't like killing these fish.. trust me.. I don't think.. they're just fish.. I prefer my fish to my dog.. they're great.. I love watching them.. I put my hand in the tank and let them come near.. I've grown close and attached to these fish.. It may read as though I'm just doing this blind, but I do a lot of reading and I ask a lot of questions.. a Friend of mine works in the zoo aquarium, has a degree and has a lot of knowledge, I ask her a lot of questions as well.. She has been a great help.. I want to know what Im doing that is killing, what appears to be, healthy fish in one night.

The food..
.. brine isn't all they get.. Yes ,I dont have any plant life .. I have a variety pack of frozen food.. .. The LFS said that would be fine. they eat well.. but not a hole cube twice a day.. I waste about 1/4 to 1/2 a cube each feeding because they don't eat enough in the 2 min time frame.. I don't pour it all in unless they eat it all..
Brine is what they get most, but not all they get.
So.. that's that.. I'd love any feedback, please keep the criticism for the sake of criticizing to a minium. Constructive Criticism is welcome, as long as it's meant to teach me, not belittle me.. I feel aweful enough..

[Fishfirst]

sounds like you are on the right track... and thankyou for quickly clarifying your previous post. I'd say wait a few weeks and then add a fish wait a few weeks add a fish, wait a few weeks add a fish. Do this until the tank is stocked... while doing 25% water changes every two weeks or so. DO NOT ADD THE CLARIFIER... and do not "clean the tank" only water changes, and algae removal should be done.

Also, think about investing in a protien skimmer and some more liverock. Preferably add some more liverock now... and a skimmer soon. The coralife super skimmer 65 would be a good model http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113771

[MightyMouse]

Thanks for the info..
I talked to a guy at the LFS and he said the way I described the last fish's behavior it sounds like he was starved for air. Then I described what the cloud looked like when I added the clarifier and he said that's more than likely what killed my fish.. He went on to use more technical terms than I care to attempt to butcher, but it sounded good.. not sure if it meant anything..
The damsel .. the last little damsel.. what to do what to do.. he surely won't survive in the 2 gal. bucket. The pep. shrimp died between the last call with my wife and now. One of the emerald crabs managed to climb out of the water onto the towel I had everything on.. he is still A.O.K..
I hooked up a water pump I had sitting around and ran the tube down the center of my tank. This is an attempt to keep more O2 at the bottom. I changed my foam filters, rinsed the carbon thoroughly and added more as well and hooked it all back up. I let it sit for about 15 minutes and put the damsel in.. I will watch him until I go to bed and at the first sign of stress I will make a new batch of saltwater to keep him going while the tank does it's thing.. I'm also workiing on a location for a small 10g HT.
I'll let you know if the damsel makes it.. I'm thinking I filtered out a good portion of the clarifier.. Not all of it though.. I'm also stuck needing a new filter now as well.. Since the Fluval is so old they don't sell anything for it I'm kinda stuck .. I have the last two foam filters I could find in the can right now. They aren't really supposed to be changed, so I'm good for a while, but I better start looking for a replacement filter just in case. The Fluval was free from a coworker, so there won't be too much heartache ..
Thanks again for any info.. I appreciate it a lot.

[CollegeReefer]

what is the brand of clairfier you are using? Is it TetraAqua Water Clarifier which is for freshwater only? What you said clairifer i assumed you were using a saltwater safe liqued like amquel plus or other brands that take away nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, and well other things. Maybe it is the clarifier if it isn't made for saltwater.

I would do what fishfirst said, but before adding fish, i would first add some more live rock. Depending on the type of rock, you will need anywhere from 1 -2 pounds of liverock per gallon of water. Live rock should be your main means of filtration. I also echo fishfirst that you should get a protein skimmer. They are great.

As fishfirst also said, the only thing you should be doing to "clean" your tank is 20% water changes and scrape algae off of the glass. Like i said ealier, you should consider doing the water changes bi-weekly or maybe even weekly for now to get what ever you put in out of your system. As for your bucket with the fish in, i wouldn't worry about getting a filter, maybe just add a air stone to the buttom. just do partial water changes in the bucket.

As for your fish store. Don't trust them. Before you buy anything make sure you know about it. I have seen too many people blame their fish store for the fish they got, but in reality they should have researched before hand. I would add the live rock. While you wait for everything to go back to zero do some extra reading on the hobby. Also make a fish list. Exactly what you want and then read up on them. Make sure they can go in your size tank. Then you need to look at how aggressive they are. By looking at this you can decide when to add the fish. You want to add peacefull fish first and your most aggresive fish last.

Read through the threads here. There is some very good information on these forums and other forums. Good luck and keep us informed.

[CollegeReefer]

you might want to consider getting rid of the damsel. Would your lfs take him back. He is too aggresive to the first fish in your tank.

[MightyMouse]

The LFS would probably take him back, but he seems to be doing ok.. I'll keep him until I'm ready for more fish..
For now I'll start adding about 3lbs of Live Rock per week for a month or two.. That should make the tank look better too..
As for researching the fish.. I actually have.. Here's the senerio..
My wife and daughter wanted the Regal Tang, I said, no we can't have that fish because you want at least a 150Gal for a regal tang from what I read, because they like to swim, and swim fast at that.. The guy at the store said.. No, you don't have to worry about the size of your tank, because the fish will be fine until they grow to a certain point. Then you can just bring the fish back and we'll give you 1/2 of the amount we sell them for. So, I said, so if the fish is this small now, and I bring it back as much larger fish, like that one, you'd give me 1/2 of $75 for a fish I paid $40 for. He said, yes, .. so.. I figured OK, I'm not losing money on a fish I'd have to sell back in a year or so. So I decided to go with the sailfin, only because the Regals were all too large already, IMHO. . I do regret buying the fish now. From now on I'll just rely on what I read rather than what the LFS guys say when it comes to buying fish.
For my next set of fish I'll just get a clown, of course.. and maybe 1 other fish.. I think I'm going to stick with stocking up on Live rock for now though.. Then later on I'll try some more fish.. I don't want to kill more fish....
.. Oh, the Damsel, who is in the tank, is swimming around a lot.. He's back to his normal blue color, and he's eating also.. One hermit crab just took on a new shell, and the emerald crabs are being emerald crabs.. .. sitting in one spot eating a lot...
So far it looks promising for the Damsel. .. I'll keep a close eye on him..
Thank you so much for all the info too..

PS- yes the product was made for salt and freshwater. I made sure of that when I bought it.. It seems to be the only one though.. The brand will remain undisclosed until I hear back from the company and we figure out what the real problem is.. I don't want to put down a product that might not be the problem.. I still dont' rule out myself as the problem. I work really hard to keep the fishtank up to par though.. Oh, and the cleaning thing.. Yes, clean the glass of all alge and vacuum out the water and some fo the alge on the substrate. is this ok to do? I don't want to suck up any good bacteria from the sand, or spread it into the fish's gills...

[CollegeReefer]

You really shouldn't have to vacuum out any of the algea on the substrate, let your cuc doing that. With that said, you may want to add some snails. Best thing for keeping your tank clean. They will help keep the sand , rock, and glass clean. All i do is siphon out 20% of the water, add the new saltwater that has been mixing for a day, scrape algea of glass when needed, and top of with fresh water when needed. I also check ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites weekly and check s.g./saltinity severl times a week.

[CollegeReefer]

As for the tang. Your lfs just wanted to get rid of the fish. It is a sale, and one less fish they need to worry about feeding and one last fish they need to worry about dieing. Lfs have it hard considering they have to suck up the cost of the fish when it dies. What size was your tang? A lot of people like yourself get caught in the keep a fish till it out grows the tank, and this is a horrible thing to get caught by. Why? size of fish doesn't always mean size of tank. Actually in most cases this isn't true. Some fish just need more room, and tangs are one of them. Tangs need both hiding places, so lots of rock work, and room to roam. Depending on the type of tang also makes a big difference. For instance a blue tang that can get up to 1 foot needs at least a 75 gallon tang, where as a yellow tang only gets up to 8 inches and needs at least a 100 gallon tank. Both these fish are tangs, but they both act differently. A blue tang for instance are found laying around often. Some would call it playing dead. Blue tangs are also extremely passive. The yellow tang is a swimmer and is not as passive as the blue tang. There are many other exsamples of this in tangs and other fish. There is even exsamples of this in freshwater. Also different fish are more territoral then others. This is another facter one needs to consider when decided the minimum tank size for the fish. So in short, the size tank needed for a particular fish is not just about the size of fish, but also about how the fish acts. I hope this gives you a general idea on why the "let it grow out" is not a good philosophy for both freshwater and saltwater keeping.

[MightyMouse]

OK, sounds good to me.. I was told my snails probably starved to death because they all died (8 of them) all I had was that brown alge.. Is that true did the snails die? I didn't buy more because I didn't want to kill more of them...
I'll buy a couple cleaner shrimp when the tank is doing well and is restocked later down the line....
This comes as an omen to me though, because we have an offer to move that I found out about yesterday.. We looked at the fish and said.. .. but what will we do with the tank and fish.. I joked and said I'd sell it with the house.. .. 12 hours later.. it's not an issue anymore I suppose.. ..
My plan now is to leave the tank as is.. wait until I know what's going to happen with the move and such, and then .. when I'm settled into the new place, or the timing is right and I know I"m not moving I'll see how the damsel is doing.. If he's dead I'm going to drain 100% of the water, remove the substrate, put in new substrate and start fresh .. and follow all of the rules written in this forum.. I Followed them all for the most part, but may have done something wrong.. not sure.. I wont have this happen again..
Time to watch a movie, fish is still going strong.. I'll check every hour until 11pm... that will have him in the tank for 5 hours or so before I go to sleep.. By then, if the water is going to kill him I will already see the sure signs of it...
thanks again.

[MightyMouse]

Well, the Damsel is still alive and looks like he's doing well.. I'll keep an eye on him and hopefully he'll be fine. Thanks for all the help.

[CollegeReefer]

I think your damsel will be fine. They can survive almost everything. I normally say they survive everything but you found something they can's survive in. Also keep us updated on what you find out about the product. I and i am sure others would like to know what you used that was saltwater safe, but turned to be a deadly substance. As for your snails, my guess is the hermits killed them. Hermits can't make their own shells, they steal them from other animals that do. If you don't have extra shells in the tank for the hermits picking they tend to kill the snails for theres. I also feed my cuc sometimes....I sometimes wonder how much there is actually to clean up in a tank and i like you don't want them to starve.

[MightyMouse]

I have a bunch of hermit shells in the tank already.. I collected a bunch of those spiral shells when I lived in FL. I boiled them for about an hour before putting them in the tank.. The Hermits have taken those shells. The Shrimp, on the other hand, seemed to spend a lot of time on top of the snail shells.. One snail managed to get him self above my water bar (where the filtered water comes out of.. .. Well the water evaporated about 1 inch while I was out of town, my wife never bothered to refill.. The poor snail never went back down into the water..
OK, well, the Damsel is alive and doing well. I'm convinced it was the clarifier at this point. This stuff did kill the other damsel that was in my tank.. He was dead when I woke up yesterday though..
The product name will be disclosed in a couple of days pending a phone call. I did tell the petstore that sells the stuff about my situation, the girl there was very receptive and said she'll let anyone who'll use it in saltwater know about what happened so they don't have the same problem.

[Damon]

Figure I'll add an interesting fact about your lfs..
"Keep him till he outgrows your tank and we'll buy him back for 1/2 of what we sell them for"

Lets look at this....... (prices will vary but you'll get the idea)

Regal tang (small) $40.00
Regal tang (medium) $75.00
Time it takes for you to grow him up (8-14 months)

Regal tang (large) $100.00

What they will give you for it ($50.00 usually in store credit)

Odds of a regal tang living in a 46 gallon tank for over 3 months? SLIM

If he dies on you after a cpl of weeks your loss
If he makes it, they benefit

You are growing their fish for them with no risk for them.

Can you now see why we say they are out to make money?

Mom and Pop stores usually give much better advice as they rely on word of mouth for business.

[MightyMouse]

This place is a mom and pop store.. I don't know though.. I am not going to trust anyone at the fish stores. I'll just read.. if I have a question while at the store .. I'll get what I was there for, unless the question is about that item, and then I'll find my answer online.
The damsel is doing great, by the way. The tank is looking fine, the death cloud is still slightly visible, but gone for the most part. It just looks a little hazzy.
My crab are all doing well also.. So.. I'll start changing some water out and buying some live rock here and there.
Thanks for all the advice.