Sump configuration

[SpongeBob]

Hi,

I plan on setting up a sump for my 55gal next week. The sump will be made with a 25gal tank. I planned on dividing it in 3 sections as follows : First section receives water from overflow box and is processed by protein skimmer. A plexiglass will be used as a divider and will let water flow from UNDER in order to keep out the micro bubble from entering the second section. Second section is my main concern... I be back on that subject right after I finish this... Another divider, same configuration as the first one i.e. water flows under. Third section will house the return pump. The sump will be OPEN AIR with no light.

Here's a few questions :

I understand that a live sand bed is desirable. Am I correct? Will one inch thick be enough?

Second section, should I put anything in there to help process the Nitrates... besides the sand. LR? Will my LR die off because of lack of light? Any snails required if I put the LR in there? If so, how many pound of LR and how many snails ( Astrae )?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Sponge

[Fishfirst]

A lot depends on what you want it to do... do you want nitrate reduction or do you just want more volume? If you want nitrate reduction I'd look into refugiums.

[SpongeBob]

Originally Posted by Fishfirst

A lot depends on what you want it to do... do you want nitrate reduction or do you just want more volume? If you want nitrate reduction I'd look into refugiums.

Fishy,

Thx for your answer. Both actually. But my sump will not have any light. The readings I have made on the subject are pretty confusing. Some say light, some other say no light... I'm a bit lost here.

What's your opinion on the subject and how would you go about it?

Sponge

[TheOldSalt]

If you want the water to flow under the first baffle to avoid bubbles, then your first baffle is fine. The second baffle should have the water flow OVER it, though, into the pump chamber. Otherwise, you'll have sand getting into your pump all the time. Make sure to have the height of this second baffle about two inches lower than the first one. This will set the water level in the whole sump to two inches from the top. If you had it flowing under, there would be no way to adjust the height and you'd be stuck with whatever you got, based on pump speed and overflow box flow rate.

1-1.5 inches of live sand over a plenum will work, but not just sitting on the bottom without a plenum. Otherwise you'd need about 4 inches of sand.

Without lights, the exterior liverock organisms wil die. The bacteria within it will be fine, though. If you want to save some money, you can use relatively lifeless "base" rock, commonly available and cheaper than the livelier stuff, which isn't going to be further harmed by darkness.
You won't need snails or algae-grazing hermit crabs.

As for the amount of base rock to use, stack it in such a way as to allow good water circulation all around it, and stuff the sump as full as you can get it. ( assuming that denitrification is your main goal )
If you want to use lights after all and get good rock, then treat the sump like an ordinary tank.

If you really want to make your tank very efficient and easy, consider making a macroalgae & mud filter from your sump tank. You'd need lights over the sump, but you wouldn't need any rocks at all, so the cost would be similar. www.ecosystemaquarium.com is a good place to learn about this method, which by the way in many independant comparative studies has been shown to greatly outperform the other methods.

[SpongeBob]

Thx TOS. Going to read the link now and come back with comments and probably questions.

Sponge
PS : And thx for all the setup info. You're the best!

[leveldrummer]

im doing the same reading right now sponge, one thing about your baffles, i seem to see in most sumps is a "bubble trap" ill try to explain it as good as i can, the first baffle, has 3 parts, water flows under, then over, then under the last one again,this keeps the water lever in the first chamber the same (beneficial for your skimmer) then your sand bed/rock, then the second baffle is the opposite, over, under, over, this keeps the water level up for your fuge, and only the water level where the pump is drops, doing this seems to trap all the bubbles being made by everything in the system, you can probably find more info, you seem resourcful enough.

[SpongeBob]

Originally Posted by leveldrummer

im doing the same reading right now sponge, one thing about your baffles, i seem to see in most sumps is a "bubble trap" ill try to explain it as good as i can, the first baffle, has 3 parts, water flows under, then over, then under the last one again,this keeps the water lever in the first chamber the same (beneficial for your skimmer) then your sand bed/rock, then the second baffle is the opposite, over, under, over, this keeps the water level up for your fuge, and only the water level where the pump is drops, doing this seems to trap all the bubbles being made by everything in the system, you can probably find more info, you seem resourcful enough.

Got ya LD, saw the same drawings as you did. Makes a lot of sense and will proceed that way. Thx for the input... Now lets annoy TOS with more questions if you will... lmao !!!

Cheers mate,

Sponge

[SpongeBob]

Ok TOS,

I read the link, searched the web, found about the miracle mud and their filter system and now I have a MAJOR HEADACHE!

Do I need THEIR filter to use Miracle Mud ? How long does Miracle Mud last? Do you have to buy that Thing-a-ma-jiggy coral or what not that grows on it? What Light Source is required for this coral? Will regular incandescent buld do or do I need a fluo... if a fluo is needed, will NO do? Can I just dump the miracle mud on the bottom of my second section and that's it?

Ok... I'm a lazy bum today. I could find out all those answers if I had the courage and strength but right now buddy, I need a lift!

[SpongeBob]

Originally Posted by SpongeBob

Ok TOS,

I read the link, searched the web, found about the miracle mud and their filter system and now I have a MAJOR HEADACHE!

Do I need THEIR filter to use Miracle Mud ? How long does Miracle Mud last? Do you have to buy that Thing-a-ma-jiggy coral or what not that grows on it? What Light Source is required for this coral? Will regular incandescent buld do or do I need a fluo... if a fluo is needed, will NO do? Can I just dump the miracle mud on the bottom of my second section and that's it?

Ok... I'm a lazy bum today. I could find out all those answers if I had the courage and strength but right now buddy, I need a lift!

Ok TOS... since you were as lazy as me ( or have a life other than to search the web, answer noobs questions...) I did some more research. Here's what I found.

Seems like there are 2 sorts of mud, very similar in nature I was told, Miracle Mud and Walt Smith's Fiji Mud. I could not, so far, find Miracle Mud locally but I do have a source of Fiji Mud. I also have some mud in my garden but felt that it should remain in there and not in my aquarium. (comedy relief sentence to lighten up the text) [laugh here].... ok...[/laugh]

I visited the Miracle Mud site and also a site that sells Miracle Mud Systems. First of all, I was thrown off my chair by the price of the stuff! $400 for a plastic box, pc's and mud. OUCH! I climbed back on my chair and then I saw the PRO kit which includes a Skimmer. A Skimmer??? I fell right down again! Upon reading the description of the Mud system, it said that no skimmer is required... yet the Pro Kit includes one. If I understood correctly how the mud works, it needs Nitrates to survive and thrive. Since a skimmer is a mean of removing Nitrates, wouldn't that be like shooting yourself in the foot? Instead of a Pro Kit, shouldn't it be called the "Moron Kit" (comedy relief again... please laugh here) or am I missing something here?

I also found out that the mud depletes over time and needs to be replenished. At $10 a pound, I hope the stuff doesn't need too much "replenishing" or at least a bit slower than the time my wallet "replenishes".

So now, I'm kinda back to square one, and I didn't even pass go, didn't collect the $200. At least, I'm not in jail.... yet. Seriously, I already have a skimmer, so does that mean that I can kiss the mud goodbye? Mind you, I'm not in the habit of kissing mud, either for greeting or when it leaves. Can I still go with the 2, i.e. skimmer and mud? I was told that skimming and "mudding" would be like in "competition"... and the skimmer would win. What would it win... I don't know. I just hope it shares!

May the TOS be with me and all of you, AMEN.

Sponge

[TheOldSalt]

Skimmers work okay with mud systems, but they aren't necessary. A lot of people just can't seem to give them up, though, so the PRO models include a skimmer. It is very difficult to overskim any other sort of setup, but a mud system can be overskimmed if the skimmer is too large, hence the inclusion of one they think shouldn't be too problematic.

The mud lasts about two years. Most guys change 1/2 of their mud each year, alternating halves every time. It sits right on the bottom of the sump, and any sump works fine; you don't need theirs, although theirs are optimal.
The lights can be normal output, but they do need to be bright, down close to the sump, and turned on 24/7. The algae will release turpenoids if given a day/night cycle, which turns your water yellow, and a day/night cycle also enourages sexual reproduction in the algae, which destroys it. The constant lighting prevents these problems.

I haven't heard much about fiji mud, and so I don't know how it compares to miraclemud.
Miraclemud comes to you dry, and turns to mud when wet. It's not alive, and needs no special care. It is very nutient rich, though, but in a well-balanced way, and the Caulerpa macroalgae that do all the work grow like crazy in the stuff. It doesn't feed the algae so much as fortify it, thereby requiring the algae to strip all the food it can from the water, which cleans it nicely. The algae also exude some very useful things which make your whole system healthy & happy. Lateral-line disease/hole-in-the-head is a very rare sight indeed in a mud tank, and already-afflicted fishes are easily cured by putting them in a mud tank. Corals enjoy a 90% increase in survival & growth rates, too.

The ecosystemaquarium company, by the way, is going to be releasing this summer a new small integrated tank/filter unit. This will be the first such small integrated unit anywhere to employ the ecosystem method, and if it turns out to be as popular as other such small integrated tanks, the ecosystem mehtod will finally get the mainstream attention it currently lacks.

[SpongeBob]

Ok my favorite breakfast,

If I understand you correctly, I can keep the skimmer and the mud, pass go, collect $200, don't go to jail and I am free. Cool.

One thing that still eludes me... that "Caulerpa macroalgae" thing grows by itself and doesn't need to be purchased? Does it need any support, like a base rock to grow on?

Got you on the light thing.... don't want my MACRO algae to be fornicating behind my back. Gawd, sex is everywhere nowadays. Don't give me that look TOS.... I know you have some Miracle Mud somewhere and turn the lights off just to "enjoy the show"... you perv!!! LMAO

Seriously, thx for all the help bro! Appreciated... a LOT!

Sponge
PS: Is that signature more appropriate? LOL

[leveldrummer]

now this is just raising more questions with my up and comming set up. i was gonna go with a fuge, (sump, skimmer, heater, sand, rock, lights,) for pod population, and to help my tank, now what are the added benifits from a mud tank?? which would be better for a beginner reef? some easy corals, fish, live rock? can i just run with the original plan, but put the mud in place of the sand/rock? do pods still grow in this chamber?

[SpongeBob_2]

I think so LD... you put mud in place of sand

Sponge

[Reefneck]

Originally Posted by leveldrummer

now this is just raising more questions with my up and comming set up. i was gonna go with a fuge, (sump, skimmer, heater, sand, rock, lights,) for pod population, and to help my tank, now what are the added benifits from a mud tank?? which would be better for a beginner reef? some easy corals, fish, live rock? can i just run with the original plan, but put the mud in place of the sand/rock? do pods still grow in this chamber?

Pods will breed in the rock rubble and in the Live Rock in your tank as well.

You can go with the mud for added benefits without hurting your original plan for the fuge. Only reason I have not tried it is $$$.

Just use the Mud instead of Sand but still have a rubble rock pile on top for pod breeding.

Oh and check out TOS's link to read about the added benefits of using the Miracle Mud. I don't want to type a Novel today. Having too much fun.

[leveldrummer]

is it basically the fact that it greatly helps keep nitrates low, and cleans the water, by feeding the (micro algea) all the leftovers in the water? basically. right? im sure tos can throw out a bunch of more very specific info, but thats the basic idea right??

[Reefneck]

Originally Posted by leveldrummer

is it basically the fact that it greatly helps keep nitrates low, and cleans the water, by feeding the (micro algea) all the leftovers in the water? basically. right? im sure tos can throw out a bunch of more very specific info, but thats the basic idea right??

Taken from their website:

"Miracle Mud will continually replenish your aquarium's concentration of trace elements and minerals to create an ideal environment.

Miracle Mud also contains anaerobic microorganisms that denitrify the aquarium leading to a pristine home for your fishes and corals. Further proven benefits from the usage of Miracle Mud include:



Reversal of head and lateral line erosion (HLLE) in fishes.
Restoration and maintenance of fish and coral's health and vibrant colors.
Compatibility in various types of aquariums (fish-only tanks, coral-only tanks, or small polyped stony (SPS) reef tanks)
Natural denitrifier."

Now you know about as much about this particular product as I do. From everything I have read, It really works. Just no personal experience.

Keri

[leveldrummer]

any one have any personal experience with this mumbo jumbo? lol just curious if there are and good/bad stories to share. and welcome back again keri.

[TheOldSalt]

Sorry for my absence. Some goof crashed her car into a power pole, knocked it over, and left my whole section of town without power or phone for several hours.

The macroalgae absorb ammonia directly, before it even has a chance to become nitrite or nitrate. It also absorbs nitrate that slips by it the first time. It won't knock the nitrate level down to zero, but it'll come pretty darned close.

Nitrate isn't the only thing that builds up in a tank's water. It's just one of the few things we can test for. There are all kinds of other things, and the these aren't affected by normal filtration methods. The mud/algae filter, though, does eliminate many of these things, resulting in superior water quality, which leads to superior health & stability in the system. THAT's the primary difference that the ecosystem method offers, and what a difference it makes.

At a MACNA conference a few years ago, Tom Frakes gave his report on a side-by-side comparison of two tanks, each identical in every way except for the filtration, Berlin vs Eco. His goal in conducting the experiment was to demolish the claims of the makers of the Eco method, on account of the fact that he was in the business of selling skimmers.
He was forced to instead admit bitter defeat. The Ecosystem method vastly outperformed the Berlin method in every category, giving results previously thought virtually impossible to acheive.

Not only do the algae absorb all the bad stuff, they release good stuff, like vitamins and useful compounds which have a nice effect on the animals. This is surprising, since Caulerpa is toxic, but under constant 24/7 lighting all of it's bad habits disappear.

The microfauna in the tank grow especially well, too, which means a good food web is in place for rearing the tiny pelagic larvae of many reeftank invertebrates and fish.
All in all, it comes pretty close to modeling a natural captive ecosystem.
I don't know why this method has been so slowly accepted and put into use by the hobby, but I suspect that a limited distribution network and high prices are mainly to blame. I personally wouldn't consider ever setting up another reef by any other method if I could help it.

We used these at the Gulfarium on some of the tanks. It takes awhile for them to "kick in," but once they do the effects are amazing. The tanks we tried these on eventually wound up being fantastic compared to the others which remained old-school.

The best part is that the mud system is compatible with the other components, at least to an extent. You won't want more than 1/2 inch of sand in the main tank, for instance, and you have to be carefult to not overskim, which is easier said than done. Your live rock critters will thrive in a mud tank.
MIcroalgae, the annoying stuff, will of course NOT thrive in a mud tank, since the caulerpa will be able to very quickly deplete any food the micro may have had.

You DO have to get the Caulerpa separately. It doesn't just grow from spores in the mud. Luckily, it's cheap and easy to get since it grows so fast. You can usually get some cuttings for free from the LFS or anyone else who has any, since they will be constantly having to prune it anyway.

[leveldrummer]

ok tos, stupid question time (not really stupid, but trying to get you to talk in lamens terms) set up a regular fuge, instead of sand, use this miracle mud, keep normal fleuoresant lighting on it 24/7. what is this caulerpa stuff? some kind of plant? do you think most stores have it? or internet would be better? and will the MAcro algea develop naturally in this system? kinda like cycling bacteria? or is this something you have to seed?

[leveldrummer]

and.... if i go for this mud system, what the "cool guy" name for it, just a mud fuge? i dont want to look like a dork when i talk about it at the lfs, i try to sound like i know what im doing. and if i go with this, can i skip the skimmer?? or will a small one be best. (only 46 gallons and i want to do the best i can possibly do)