Please Help! Neon Green Water!? - Page 2

CMonroe · 02-07-2006, 11:07 AM

I think that's the concept I'm having trouble with too...where does the mechanical filter fit into all this. If the P-Skimmer is doing a micro-scrub of the disolved organic materials (DOM), and the microbes on the liverock are doing the chemical breakdown from Ammonia to Nitrate, then why do we need a canister or HOB macro-filter? Especially if the macro-filter is keeping the DOM in the watercolumn and allowing it to convert into excess nitrate. What I think I'm seeing here is that there shouldn't be a macro filter, but if so, where does the 'poop' go? Do we just leave undisolved organic material in the system?

CMonroe

**Fishfirst** · 02-07-2006, 12:41 PM

I think you are having problems with the concept of a protein skimmer. Protein skimmers don't keep particles in the water, they are made so that microbubbles catch the particles on their "membrane" these bubbles float to the top of the skimmer where it bottle necks and the foam flows over the top of the skimmer into the collection cup. The particles on the foam is deposited here, where they can decay OUTSIDE of the system. Technically speaking you can keep replacing/cleaning cartridges every two or three days and be fine with a HOB filter, but that gets very expensive in the long run, and can get time consuming. So with the skimmer, most particles don't rot in the tank and aren't free floating around, they can be found in the collection cup.

CMonroe, I'm not sure what you mean by your comments, please explain further... also the poop as I said before goes into the collection cup... at least it does with powerheads picking it up to go into the skimmer... one thing about a skimmer, the tank itself needs a high turnover rate to work properly. And the whole point of the skimmer is to NOT have a HOB or canister filter.

CMonroe · 02-08-2006, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fishfirst

And the whole point of the skimmer is to NOT have a HOB or canister filter.

Ah ha! That's the part of this process that I couldn't wrap my head around! I had no idea that the skimmer would remove the large particles of detrius from the water. I always (eroneously) believed that you needed multiple stages of filtration in the system: macro (HOB or canister), micro (skimmer) and biological (livesand, and/or rock)

CMonroe

dixiechicken82 · 02-09-2006, 07:08 PM

wow! Ya'll have given me soooo much info! That's awesome! Thanks ya'll! For right now we are going to take the wheel off of the penguin filter, do a water change, and buy a HOB skimmer (look I learned something!). Thanks a bunch for all the help

**Fishfirst** · 02-09-2006, 08:04 PM

no problem dixie, hope you stick around and I'm sure your green water will turn clear in a while

good luck!

CMonroe · 02-13-2006, 12:48 PM

Update: I removed the HOB and canister filter on my main tank, and now my Skimmer is producing three times more sludge than it used to. I think that proves that the skimmer was working fine along, there just wasn't anything in the water for it to skim. I installed a powerhead w/sponge filter to help circulate the water, and I'm probably going to add another powerhead before long, to make up for the flow I'm now missing since I removed the HOB & Canister filter. Thank for the advice folks.

I'm going to research a little about skimmers on freshwater tanks now. I would like to have a discus tank again, and now that I know more about how the Skimmer works to remove the detrius from the tank before it rots, I'm thinking it would be a boon to all discus keepers if it will work. Water quality is as important, maybe more important, when raising discus, than with marine aquariums.

CMonroe...

**Fishfirst** · 02-13-2006, 01:41 PM

actually freshwater skimmers are hard to get to work because they have a hard time creating the microbubbles necessary, it works with really LARGE skimmers though.

CMonroe · 02-13-2006, 04:19 PM

I did some internet searching and 9 out of 10 references said at best it would NOT hurt anything, but only one said it 'might' benefit things. I'm not going to try it.

It looks like there hasn't been a lot of changes in filter theory for discus tanks since I last raised them. UGF is still out, Canister is good (unless there is a power outage), extra airation is highly recommended, and HOB w/ foam filters are still best.

CMonroe...

02-07-2006, 12:41 PM	#22
Fishfirst Fish Guru Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Wisconsin Age: 24 Posts: 3,546	I think you are having problems with the concept of a protein skimmer. Protein skimmers don't keep particles in the water, they are made so that microbubbles catch the particles on their "membrane" these bubbles float to the top of the skimmer where it bottle necks and the foam flows over the top of the skimmer into the collection cup. The particles on the foam is deposited here, where they can decay OUTSIDE of the system. Technically speaking you can keep replacing/cleaning cartridges every two or three days and be fine with a HOB filter, but that gets very expensive in the long run, and can get time consuming. So with the skimmer, most particles don't rot in the tank and aren't free floating around, they can be found in the collection cup. CMonroe, I'm not sure what you mean by your comments, please explain further... also the poop as I said before goes into the collection cup... at least it does with powerheads picking it up to go into the skimmer... one thing about a skimmer, the tank itself needs a high turnover rate to work properly. And the whole point of the skimmer is to NOT have a HOB or canister filter. __________________ 210 Gal Reef w/ 55 Gallon Sump/Fuge, 125 Gal Fish Only, 65 Gal Seahorse-29 Gallon Sump, 55 Gal FOWLR, 54 Gal Corner FW Community, 20 Gal Nano FOWLR, 55 Gal Piranha, 29 gallon QT "All the yellow tangs and clownfish in the world can't save you now! hahahah" Peter from Family Guy

02-09-2006, 08:04 PM	#25
Fishfirst Fish Guru Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Wisconsin Age: 24 Posts: 3,546	no problem dixie, hope you stick around and I'm sure your green water will turn clear in a while good luck! __________________ 210 Gal Reef w/ 55 Gallon Sump/Fuge, 125 Gal Fish Only, 65 Gal Seahorse-29 Gallon Sump, 55 Gal FOWLR, 54 Gal Corner FW Community, 20 Gal Nano FOWLR, 55 Gal Piranha, 29 gallon QT "All the yellow tangs and clownfish in the world can't save you now! hahahah" Peter from Family Guy

02-13-2006, 01:41 PM	#27
Fishfirst Fish Guru Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Northern Wisconsin Age: 24 Posts: 3,546	actually freshwater skimmers are hard to get to work because they have a hard time creating the microbubbles necessary, it works with really LARGE skimmers though. __________________ 210 Gal Reef w/ 55 Gallon Sump/Fuge, 125 Gal Fish Only, 65 Gal Seahorse-29 Gallon Sump, 55 Gal FOWLR, 54 Gal Corner FW Community, 20 Gal Nano FOWLR, 55 Gal Piranha, 29 gallon QT "All the yellow tangs and clownfish in the world can't save you now! hahahah" Peter from Family Guy

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02-07-2006, 11:07 AM	#21
CMonroe Fishy Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 40 Posts: 26	I think that's the concept I'm having trouble with too...where does the mechanical filter fit into all this. If the P-Skimmer is doing a micro-scrub of the disolved organic materials (DOM), and the microbes on the liverock are doing the chemical breakdown from Ammonia to Nitrate, then why do we need a canister or HOB macro-filter? Especially if the macro-filter is keeping the DOM in the watercolumn and allowing it to convert into excess nitrate. What I think I'm seeing here is that there shouldn't be a macro filter, but if so, where does the 'poop' go? Do we just leave undisolved organic material in the system? CMonroe

02-09-2006, 07:08 PM	#24
dixiechicken82 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Georgia Age: 25 Posts: 4	wow! Ya'll have given me soooo much info! That's awesome! Thanks ya'll! For right now we are going to take the wheel off of the penguin filter, do a water change, and buy a HOB skimmer (look I learned something!). Thanks a bunch for all the help

02-13-2006, 12:48 PM	#26
CMonroe Fishy Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 40 Posts: 26	Update: I removed the HOB and canister filter on my main tank, and now my Skimmer is producing three times more sludge than it used to. I think that proves that the skimmer was working fine along, there just wasn't anything in the water for it to skim. I installed a powerhead w/sponge filter to help circulate the water, and I'm probably going to add another powerhead before long, to make up for the flow I'm now missing since I removed the HOB & Canister filter. Thank for the advice folks. I'm going to research a little about skimmers on freshwater tanks now. I would like to have a discus tank again, and now that I know more about how the Skimmer works to remove the detrius from the tank before it rots, I'm thinking it would be a boon to all discus keepers if it will work. Water quality is as important, maybe more important, when raising discus, than with marine aquariums. CMonroe...

02-13-2006, 04:19 PM	#28
CMonroe Fishy Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 40 Posts: 26	I did some internet searching and 9 out of 10 references said at best it would NOT hurt anything, but only one said it 'might' benefit things. I'm not going to try it. It looks like there hasn't been a lot of changes in filter theory for discus tanks since I last raised them. UGF is still out, Canister is good (unless there is a power outage), extra airation is highly recommended, and HOB w/ foam filters are still best. CMonroe...

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