Goldfish for beginners?

[plummie]

I am considering starting up a tank and I love the look of the fancy goldies. ****Do they make good pet fish for a beginner aquarist? ****Are there other species I should consider instead?

My favorite goldfish are the black moors, orandas, pearl scale, and shubunkins. ****I love those big telescope eyes. **** ****Would a 40 gallon tank be suitable for 4 goldies?

Which filters do you recommend for goldfish, and where is the best place to buy everything (starting from complete scratch)? ****

Should I buy one of these beginner "kits" or avoid them altogether? http://www.petsmart.com/global/produ...=1114402598652

Any other cost-saving suggestions for a beginning aquarist would be great!

Thanks in advance!

[osteoporoosi]

Goldfish are great beginner fish- if you have a tank big enough. In my opinion 4 goldfish would need at least 100gallons, even fantails grow huge and are messy. If you want to see how big goldfish really can grow, buy a 150g and 6 goldfish.
Eheim canister filters are the best, although they cost a bit.

[MyraVan]

In my opinion, goldfish are bad beginner fish, precisely because they get so big. Also because, contrary to the opinion of people who have never kept fish seriously, they are not very tough fish (at least the fancy ones aren't) and aren't forgiving of the mistakes that newbies tend to make.

I think that much better beginner fish are cyprinids like danios or barbs. These are fish that are much tougher and more forgiving of mistakes, and most stay a reasonable size, so a 20 gallon tank would hold a nice collection of them.

My experience with goldfish is that, out of ignorance, we bought 2 very small fancy goldfish and 2 zebra danios to cycle a 20 gallon unheated tank. The goldfish were dead within a week and a half, and the zebras are still alive 7 months later, and have 4 more zebra danios and 3 rosy barbs to keep them company.
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[plummie]

Thanks for your input!

I like the look of the barbs alright, but the zebra danios look rather plain to me. I am aware that goldfish get huge and I would like to transplant them to a backyard pond once they outgrow a tank in several years. Is this what most folks do?

I am considering starting out with just two fancies now, in case I mess up, and maybe a 25 gallon tank for starters. I know they will outgrow this tank eventually, but I can make adjustments later on down the road. It was suggested to me to start with 3 medium-sized inexpensive coment goldfish to cycle the tank. Then after 3 weeks I should be able to add the fancies.

But in reality, this is more goldfish than I want to end up with - and I don't want comets if they should survive. Is this good or bad advice to start with?

Also what are the most common mistakes that newbies make when starting up a tank, so I can work hard to avoid them.. thanks!

[MyraVan]

Having comets and fancies in the same tank is a bad idea: the comets are much faster swimmers, and wil get to the food before your fancies.

As I said, we don't have goldfish (they died) but I think that as a general rule people who keep comets later put them in ponds, and people who keep fancy goldfish later put them into big tanks.

I think that cycling with fancy goldfish isn't a good idea. They will probably die. They simply aren't very tough.

The biggest mistake that newbies make is to buy fish without understanding the nitrogen cycle. If you don't know what I'm talking about, read
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-intro.html
and especially read this
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html

There are three ways to avoid fish deaths when cycling. Any one of these will work.
1. Buy a very small number of small, tough fish for cycling. If you don't like danios, you might like cherry barbs, or gold barbs.
2. Buy a small number of moderately tough fish, and add lots of floating plants to absorb excess ammonia while the beneficial bacteria are building up.
3. Do a fishless cycle.

We ended up doing 1, since our danios lived through the cycle. Nowadays I do 2, since I love plants, and I'm too impatient to do a fishless cycle. Most people here do 3. Here's a good article about fishless cycling:
http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/Fishlesscycle.htm

If you really want to keep fancy goldfish, I think your best option is #3.

[plummie]

Wow thank you so much for the links and for the information! ****I've learned about the nitrogen cycle in several of my bio & chem classes and it will be neat to finally apply that knowledge to something in my life.

I realize that I should not use the fancy goldfish for cycling so if I choose to go with route #1 for my cycling, say if I add cherry barbs, and if they survive can they co-habitate with two fancy goldfish in the longterm? ****Will they compete with the fancies for food and do they share a similar diet? ****How many barbs should I go with?

If I go with route #2, with floating plants, which kinds are the best to buy? ****I've read that these plants are good for tanks with goldfish: hornwart, elodea, java moss, java ferns, and anubias nana. ****Are those good for cycling and do you have any other suggestions?

(Also can I do a combination of #1 and #2 together for cycling?)

Finally, the fishless cycle seems like more work than the first two options, but I would also be willing to do that if barbs and golfish do not work well together long-term. ****What source of ammonia do you use and where can you purchase it?

I apologize for all the questions but I'd really like to try and keep a couple fancy goldfish, and I'm willing to do all the research beforehand to prevent fish deaths. Thanks so much again!

[Ownager2004]

In my opinion fancy goldfish are bad beginner fish because with a lot of them there are inherent problems that will manifest themselves no matter what you do. One of the biggest problems with fancy goldfish is swim bladder disease and it would be beyond repair before a noob noticed. Also they are very dirty fish and require someone who is willing to clean out the tank thouroughly and often, which many beginners dont understand or want to do.

[plummie]

Well, I for one am willing to clean the tank thoroughly and often, especially if I invest a lot of money into it. ****Please don't lump me with beginners who do not do the research before getting into fishkeeping. ****It is very obvious to me that a tank is the fish's entire eating/living/breathing space and that it must be kept immaculately clean.

Just because I'm new to fishkeeping doesn't mean I'm completely ignorant of the work that goes into maintaining a healthy tank. ****I understand that goldfish are messy and I'm prepared to do the work.

Now can someone tell me if swim bladder disease is something I should be overly concerned about?

[MyraVan]

I realize that I should not use the fancy goldfish for cycling so if I choose to go with route #1 for my cycling, say if I add cherry barbs, and if they survive can they co-habitate with two fancy goldfish in the longterm? Will they compete with the fancies for food and do they share a similar diet? How many barbs should I go with?

They all have a pretty similar diet: flakes and other foods (we feed frozen bloodworms & brine shrimp, and give them the occasional treat of live brine shimp and water fleas). But as far as I know, all barbs are very fast swimmers. They are also exceedingly greedy. At least our rosy barbs are: they will keep on eating long after other fish have stopped. I have heard other barbs are similar. In our tank, the danios are fast enough to compete, but I don't think fancy goldfish would be. So, no, I don't think they are very compatible.

If you did cycle with barbs, I think I would probably go with three small ones (cherry or gold), if you were doing a 20 gallon tank or so. I think three is about the minimum number of these fish you should have (you should add at least another three once the cycle is over). Get two females and one male, if you can tell them apart.

If I go with route #2, with floating plants, which kinds are the best to buy? I've read that these plants are good for tanks with goldfish: hornwart, elodea, java moss, java ferns, and anubias nana. Are those good for cycling and do you have any other suggestions?

If you have hard water, hornwort and elodea are perfect for cycling. They grow quickly, especially if left floating, and will help protect yourfish from ammonia and nitrites. Those plants don't grow so well in soft water, though, so you could try water sprite if you have soft water. Java moss, java ferns, and anubias nana are great plants, but grow far too slowly to help protect your fish during the cycle.

(Also can I do a combination of #1 and #2 together for cycling?)

Sure. Extra tough fish like danios and barbs are likely to survive a cycle without any help, but those nasty chemicals can't be doing them any good. Floating plants are always a good idea in a new tank.

Finally, the fishless cycle seems like more work than the first two options, but I would also be willing to do that if barbs and golfish do not work well together long-term. What source of ammonia do you use and where can you purchase it?

Fishless cycling is more work, but it may be your only option if you really want to keep fancy goldfish. I don't know where to buy it as I've never tried this method. The article on fishless cycling had some suggestions of what to buy and where to get it.

But seriously, I would listen to what Ownager2004 says. Why not start off with some nice barbs, and get some experience managing fish that way? You've admitted that somewhere down the line, if you started out with a 25 gallon tank or so, you would have to upgrade to a larger tank. Why not start out with easier fish in a 25 gallon tank, and then later buy the nice big tank for the goldies?

[plummie]

Okay I will definitely consider everything you've said! The barbs are also very pretty and I still have a lot of research to do anyway before I take the plunge. Thank you for all your advice thus far!

[John]

When cycling in a tank, I usually go for two weeks with a full tank of water with a few floating plants, then add some small fish like feeder guppies that are more indespensible if they happen to die.

[Niki2105]

If you want to get Fancy Goldfish then get them. If you get a 40 gallon i think 3 goldfish would be all you should put in it casue they can get big, but if you were gonna put them in a big pond when they started to outgrow the tank it probally wouldnt hurt to have 4 it just might mean a few more water changes. Just do your research so you know what to expect and how big they will get if cared for properlly.

MyraVan, I do not agree with you about Goldfish not being tough fish. I got a Fantail and she is still living and she was only housed in a 2 gallon fish bowl with no heaters or filters for her first 2 years. It was only recently that i got my 10 gallon tank (which she was in to cycle it) that i started doing research on fish and learned that it should be 10 gallons per goldfish. I feel bad about not giving her the proper room and am currently looking for a 30 or 40 gallon tank so i can put her in it with one or two more, but she is a very hardy fish and i have never had any problems with her like swimbladder or anything. So just becasue your goldfish did not make it threw your tank cycle dose not mean that all goldfish are not hardy.

[osteoporoosi]

A good rule is to get the fish that look most natural- avoid telescopes, large tails and ballloon stomaches. Fantails are ok, if they swim good. Overbreeded fish have alot of diseases.

[Willow]

Another good fishless cycling idea is to find a fish store with nice clean tanks and ask them for a couple handfuls of gravel from one of their established tanks. Don't rinse it or let it dry out (bring it home in a plastic bag with some of their water, just like a fish), just throw it in your tank, then "feed" the tank a tiny pinch of food every day, it should cycle nicely in a couple weeks.

[Thunderkiss]

"They all have a pretty similar diet: flakes and other foods (we feed frozen bloodworms & brine shrimp, and give them the occasional treat of live brine shimp and water fleas)"

No.
Goldfish are primarily vegetarians. DON'T feed them meat products. it isn't healthy for the fish.
And goldfish stay with goldfish, and that's it. Don't mix temperates with tropicals, ever.