Need Suggestions for "plasma" tank

[Lawladykerri]

I'm Kerri in Atlanta, Georgia. I have a great wall-mount tank from Imagine Aquatics. It is about 3" thick and holds 6 gallons of water. Total viewing area is about 24 by 18, approximately. It has a filtration system that supports thirty "inches" of fish. I have 5 giant danios and live plants. I would like to add a fish that stirs up the bottom a bit, and will get rid of any food that falls to the bottom. Any recommendations for a fish that won't eat my plants?

[maxpayne_lhp]

It has a filtration system that supports thirty "inches" of fish.

You mean it can support the ammount of required oxigen for 30 inches of fish as it exchanges the bodies of the water? To me, plasma tanks don't sound good. They minimize the surface area >> low oxigen.
However, you can choose some tetras, some gouramies, maybe.

[fish_doc]

Welcome, Kerri
Hope you stick around awhile. Your tank is a little limiting but corydora is one of the options. But they like small groups. im not sure your tank has enough ground space for a group of them.

[thevossinator]

it's possible some plecos or algae eaters could work---they are thin...but many get too lazy and don't do anything

seems as if those aqua babies would have more surface area on top(sarcastically)---hehe (remembers those dang things!) will see how this fad lasts...see who is persuaded that the fish are not stressed---just like betta vases---"it eats the plant's roots!)
Personally, I would just put a large fish tank in my wall. I'd not suggest using one of these---you can find many other stream-lined healthy tanks.

[Lexus]

Can those giant Danios even turn around in the 3"?? They are big and pretty active. Personally all I would keep in that is a betta.

[fishfreaks]

Originally Posted by Lexus

Can those giant Danios even turn around in the 3"?? They are big and pretty active. Personally all I would keep in that is a betta.

i agree. it only holds 6 gallons of water so you dont have many options

[Lawladykerri]

I have had the Danios in for five weeks. They have plenty of room to "turn around," and are quite active in the tank. I don't really see any evidence of stress... And the filtration system is supposed to supply enough oxygen to support 30 1" fish... If the fish were stressed or cramped, what evidence would I see?

[Fishfirst]

hahah 30 fish in a 6 gallon??? You've got to be kidding me. Whoever sold you this was obviously trying to make a buck. You MIGHT be able to get by with 6 fish, maybe 7. And giant danios get WAY to big for a 3" turn around room. If you want danios, pick out the smaller guys like leopard or zebras. Other fish suggestions:
Neon Tetras
Glo Lite Tetras
Spotted Corys
Dwarf Platys
Guppys

See there is more to a tank than just oxygen needs. Every tank has a "bioload capacity" that can't be exceeded. Unless you've got one of the most efficient and ultimate filtration units on earth, 30 fish will not live in this tank. I'd definately take back the giant danios and trade them in for some new fish.

In any respect, I wish you luck with your new tank.

[Lawladykerri]

Thanks for the advice. I happen to know a little about the filtration system, since I wrote the patent for it. The tank was, in essence, "payment" for those services. It does support 30 1" fish, and many of the test tanks have, both salt and fresh water, have been going for well over a year without losing a single fish to day (except one that jumpted into the filter when the lid was cracked open). I know the chemical and mechanical aspects, I just don't know a great deal about fish varieties, and which species interact best with other species, or behave best in smaller environments, or won't eat my plants. If I see any evidence of stress or crowding or other problems, I will contact the company and the inventors so they can deal with that. I will consider replacing the giant danios. I was told to start my tank with danios, so that the tank's wet/dry filter can have a chance to establish itself. They probably didn't mean GIANT danios, but again, I don't know fish very well and didn't really know the difference. Hence, I am seeking your help....

[Fishfirst]

well you really have come to the right place. Although your fish may seem fine for the tank now, Giant Danios get way to large and way to active for that size of a tank. Most larger fish that get put into small tanks are subject to a high concentration growth inhibitor hormone they produce. This shortens their lifespan from a possible 5-20 years(depending on species) to 5-20 months.

As for the saltwater side of this, I don't know how they can put 30" of saltwater fish into a tank that size. Note: this tank is 3" wide, but most saltwater fish get longer than 3" long. How do they turn around???

[flynngriff]

Well, congratulations for getting a patent... That's something to be proud of!

As for what fish to put in it, I would recommend any of the smaller variaties of fish that don't get more than a inch or two long. I would suggest a singe school ofnNeon tetras, zebra danios, white clouds, or something along those lines. The filter may be able to support a larger number of fish, but the volume of the tank just isn't enough for more than a single small school of fish in my opinion.

[ImagineAquatics]

LawLadyKerri sent me an email directing me to this forum. I've read all of the suggestions and understand the issues that give most people pause. I am responding to her email here so I can also answer some of your questions as well.

We're a very small company that has put a lot of thought into our aquarium, so most of the issues that I have read about on this thread have been addressed in our design. Let me know what you think about our aquarium.

I'll start by covering the limitations of this aquarium (this is not intended to be an advertisement, so I won't suger coat anything.) I will only be covering freshwater in this reply, as we are still experimenting with our salt water recommendations.

The aquarium is only 5" wide (5.5" outside width), but has 18 inches of length. Any fish that cannot turn around (with some very limited exceptions) is not suitable for this aquarium. We have found that fish grow rapidly after we initially place them into our aquariums, but the growth tends to slow quite a bit as they reach 5" or so (this does NOT seem to be true for most catfish, plecos, and a several other types of fish). We usually sell our grown fish to our friends with larger tanks, or back to the petstore. I usually get my replacement fish free with some change to spare. Some pet stores are picky about what they will purchase, so buyers beware! There are also plenty of fish that will never outgrow a tank of this size. A good aquarium book will have a max size for most fish.

Heat is an issue in any small aquarium with decent circulation and adequate lighting. Our aquariums are no exception. They are made of acrylic, which is a good insulator, so they tend to hold more heat inside. Also, we have an acrylic lid that sits inside of the top of the aquarium that pretty much seals water in. The upside is that this prevents almost all evaporation from the aquarium (about one cup per month depending on the ambient heat and humidity). The downside is that it prevents heat from escaping. With 12 hours of light and a room temp of 74F, our aquariums will be around 78F-80F. Some coldwater fish will not tolerate this temp for long. I don't recommend goldfish or the like in our aquariums. Some fish will survive in warmer water but will not thrive. Most tropical fish do very well. Again, most good fish books have very good temp range requirements.

Algae grows in most aquariums and ours is no exception. We equip them with compact flourescent lighting which is good for plants and algae alike. A good pleco and a magnetic scrubber usually keep this under control. But our system does not elliminate algae. Again, a pleco is suitable to add only AFTER the algae starts to grow. Most small plecos won't eat fish food, and if they do, they tend to stop eating algae. So wait until the algae is established before adding a pleco.

As far as quantity goes, the upside is that the tank pumps enough oxygen into the water for LOTS of fish. It has dual overflows and dual wet/dry filtration, and a post reverse flow undergravel filter. Plenty filteration and oxygen for tons of fish. LawLadyKerri mentioned 30 inches of fish as a maximum, and that is our recommendation. The reasons behind this are not what you might think. We have had WAY more fish than this with no problems (I can supply you with pics, and we will soon have a live webcam), but users tend to overfeed tanks with this many fish. That leads to messy gravel, which requires maintenance. We HATE maintenance, and the reverse flow usually keeps the gravel clean if feeding is not too excessive. When feeding, make sure that all your fish eat, and that there are no pieces of food of any substantial size left in the tank after three minutes. If floating food is to be used, you will need to turn off the pump, or use the supplied feeding ring. Otherwise the food will simply overflow into the filter. If you always use the feeding ring, you will not have problems.

Power failures are big problems for small tanks. Especially ours. The oxygen exchange relies on the pump, and there is not enough surface area without the dual overflows to provide adequate oxygen exchange. If you fully stock your aquarium (20"-50"), make sure you have a UPS attached to your pump. If the power goes out in a highly stocked tank, they will suffocate in a hurry. Keep that in mind when deciding how many fish to add to your aquarium. By the way, I know no one will believe that we got 50" into a 6 actual gallons of water. I don't expect you to.

If you purchase any schooling fish (danios included) purchase them in odd numbered pairs. Three or more per species seems to work well. We have had lots of success with schooling fish. Danios, neons, bloodfin tetras, cardinals, barbs, etc. tend to school quite nicely. A tank with a few dozen neons and a couple of rainbows is absolutely amazing. I highly recommend it. Use plenty of decorations with hiding spots if you have really small fish like neons.

Also, before adding any substantial number of fish, make sure that your filter has cycled fully. Wet/dry filters have been known to take up to three months to cycle from time to time, so be patient. If you restrain yourself, only add three or four small fish at a time every other week until your tank is sufficiently full for your taste. With proper selection and a bit of patience, your losses will be very minimal.

You can check out our manual at:
http://www.imagineaquatics.com/Imagi...r%20Manual.htm
if you have any more questions. Or feel free to post a reply, or send me an email.

[Fishfirst]

Most of us here are well aware of stocking levels, behavior of fish, cycling, and several other issues you have covered, and I would also like to point out our statement at the top of the fw general board about overstocking and stunting fish. Most of us who have replied at fishforums are not concerned so much about oxygen, although that is a factor in a tank like this, we are more concerned about the recommended stocking levels. 20-50 fish in 6 gallons is not a proper stocking limit IMO. Especially to people who don't understand the biology behind the fish and the tank. This thread is NOT a critique about your design.
5" and 3" is a lot different however. Thats almost 2X the turn around room so that really isn't too much of a factor anymore (a secondary concern of mine).
It is still kind of discouraging to see that plecos and larger catfish are recommended fish (especially as algae controllers). Plecos in that small of a tank will produce too much waste and produce more nutrients, thus it would increase your algae population. I would go with something smaller in size such as oto catfish. Maxing out at 2" these guys consume dreaded diatom algae and green algae, a great fish for these tanks.
Again, this thread is not about the quality of your product, it is just like us to be more concerned about the fish and not just trying to make a tank "look" good.

[Lexus]

Wow there is so much wrong with that post I dont know where to begin. Granted it seems your manual does touch on some very important subjects, there are some aspects that are way off. I will say that it is very neat that you got a patent and have gotten it this far but this is my 2 cents...

If you fully stock your aquarium (20"-50"), make sure you have a UPS attached to your pump. If the power goes out in a highly stocked tank, they will suffocate in a hurry. Keep that in mind when deciding how many fish to add to your aquarium. By the way, I know no one will believe that we got 50" into a 6 actual gallons of water. I don't expect you to.

It is very upsetting that you would even admit to keeping 50" of fish in 6 gallons of water. There is no way to cheat the system and keep 50" of fish happy in 6 gallons. Many fish need territories, room to roam ect... What if, and let me tell you people do, put a 20 inch fish in there. People put 12" oscars in 29 Gallon tanks... they cannot move. When I had 55" of fish in my 55 gallon tank my fish were crowded, unhappy and produced huge amounts of waste.

As far as quantity goes, the upside is that the tank pumps enough oxygen into the water for LOTS of fish. It has dual overflows and dual wet/dry filtration, and a post reverse flow undergravel filter. Plenty filteration and oxygen for tons of fish. LawLadyKerri mentioned 30 inches of fish as a maximum, and that is our recommendation. The reasons behind this are not what you might think. We have had WAY more fish than this with no problems (I can supply you with pics, and we will soon have a live webcam), but users tend to overfeed tanks with this many fish. That leads to messy gravel, which requires maintenance. We HATE maintenance, and the reverse flow usually keeps the gravel clean if feeding is not too excessive. When feeding, make sure that all your fish eat, and that there are no pieces of food of any substantial size left in the tank after three minutes. If floating food is to be used, you will need to turn off the pump, or use the supplied feeding ring. Otherwise the food will simply overflow into the filter. If you always use the feeding ring, you will not have problems.

Just because you have a powerful filtration system does not get around the fact that people do overfeed, not all food will be sucked up and food produces waste and you cannot possibly eliminate all of the ammonia and nitrite/nitrate with a filter. You make it sound as if it is maintence free. The tank will need water changes like any other tank. I noticed that gravel cleaning is under "advanced maintence" and at the end of the list, this is of the upmost importance because no super duper filter will be enough to even do this, underground filter or not.
[quote]Gravel cleaning should be very infrequent, if not completely unnecessary in our upward current aquariums. In most cases, simple changes to feeding or stocking can solve the problem.[/QUOTE]
[quote]Some advanced maintenance may be helpful for the long-term success of your aquarium. In some cases, your gravel may need to be cleaned. This is usually avoidable and can be corrected. In any case, instructions on how to perform both maintenance operations is supplied below.[/QUOTE] This is even more disturbing. I have heard a rare case that people get their tank up and running fully on itself.

Heat is an issue in any small aquarium with decent circulation and adequate lighting. Our aquariums are no exception. They are made of acrylic, which is a good insulator, so they tend to hold more heat inside. Also, we have an acrylic lid that sits inside of the top of the aquarium that pretty much seals water in. The upside is that this prevents almost all evaporation from the aquarium (about one cup per month depending on the ambient heat and humidity). The downside is that it prevents heat from escaping. With 12 hours of light and a room temp of 74F, our aquariums will be around 78F-80F. Some coldwater fish will not tolerate this temp for long. I don't recommend goldfish or the like in our aquariums. Some fish will survive in warmer water but will not thrive. Most tropical fish do very well. Again, most good fish books have very good temp range requirements.

Fish need a constant heat not a fluctuating one, hence a heater. I even have a heater in my coldwater turned to a very low setting so that the temperature does not fluctuate. What happens if there is no sunlight? What about a air conditioner in the house that keeps it at 60 or lower? The tank will be room temp as you claim and the fish will be dead... then comes winter when you have the house warm or maybe summer with no air conditioner, what then?

3. Add between five and ten pounds of gravel to your aquarium.

If you add this much gravel in a 5" wide tank you will even more greatly reduce the ammount of water the tank will actually hold if you can call it a tank.

Zebra Danio and Giant Danio are excellent starter fish. Ask your local aquarium fish retailer for assistance choosing the proper starter fish.

Giant danios as stated before will get too large and too active for this tank, I believe even zebra danios will not have enough space.

Note: If your fish shows signs of declining health, increased stress, or fails to eat after a few days, it may not be suitable for your tank at this time. Replace it with a different fish. Promptly remove ANY fish that show signs of disease!

Removing a fish that shows signs of disease will not solve the problem many diseases are in the water and gravel too not just on the fish. So treating for disease is out of the question or just too hard for these people? And the worst thing to do if you have sick fish is replace with a different one, hello! If there is a problem with the fish it may be because of the tank specs not just because of a bad store or bad fish. Fish get sick from poor conditions and who is to say the next fish might get sick too. Granted many paragraphs down I find this in not so bold print

Diseased fish should be removed and isolated so that they do not infect your other fish.

How do you propose isolating them? The majority of the buyers will be inexperienced and less than willing owners. Isolating a fish requires a hospital tank or quarentine tank that has been up and running which I'm assuming most wont have and LFS wont take sick fish.

Your Imagine Aquatics, Inc. filter must be allowed to cycle before any delicate fish are added to your tank. These include angelfish, tetras, discus, cichlids, rainbows, and many other types of fish. For this reason, we recommend using starter fish until the cycle is finished.

Ha can I laugh any louder? There is no way in hell you could keep angelfish, discus, cichlids or rainbows in this tank. Maybe 2 dwarf cichlids thats it. Angelfish and discus get the size of a plate! My angels are the size of my hand right now how the heck would they turn around in your tank, oh wait you sell them back to the LFS or a neighbor, even though they probably are stunted and unhealthy by the time this comes around if they live that long. Cichlids require large tanks and very specific requirements not 6 gallons. Rainbows are way too active and grow quite large. Forget Discus as they need very clean and specific water perameters.

Algae grows in most aquariums and ours is no exception. We equip them with compact flourescent lighting which is good for plants and algae alike. A good pleco and a magnetic scrubber usually keep this under control. But our system does not elliminate algae. Again, a pleco is suitable to add only AFTER the algae starts to grow. Most small plecos won't eat fish food, and if they do, they tend to stop eating algae. So wait until the algae is established before adding a pleco.

A pleco should never be added to one of these tanks. For one they grow to ungodly sizes unless they are a fancy pleco and even then I think they produce too much waste for a tank like this. A Pleco is not the answer to all algae problems not in the least, there are many things that yes you actually touched on that cause it and can be changed to fix the problem. And if those are exhausted then a hand will do because a pleco will never survive and if he does for sure you will need a friend with a 55Gallon+ I'd say an 80G.

If floating food is to be used, you will need to turn off the pump, or use the supplied feeding ring. Otherwise the food will simply overflow into the filter.

Thats interesting because no matter what you do flakes can and will sink to the bottom pump on or not.


I think I'm done....

[Lydia]

I agree with what Lexus said. Just out of curiousity, had you kept fish BEFORE you started making these, imagine aquatics? And also you probably shouldnt recommend putting too big fish in their and then giving them to someone else when they get way to big because most people won't even bother doing it! They will just keep the too big fish in there until they are dead!

I am not trying to dis your tanks. I think it's not that bad of an idea, WITH THE RIGHT FISH IN THERE! Giant danios, discus, cichlids, sharks, angelfish, and plecos are not the right fish. They get way to big for the tank. Also you did seem to explain the nitrogen cycle and you had most of the information right. But there is no way, even with good filtration, you should keep any of those big fish you listed in a tank that small.

LawLadyKerri mentioned 30 inches of fish as a maximum, and that is our recommendation. The reasons behind this are not what you might think. We have had WAY more fish than this with no problems

What do you mean by with no problems? How long were they in there?

[maxpayne_lhp]

Well, I agree with everybody's point about the stocking level. Fish establish territories over the subtrate, that's another reason water surface area ~ subtrate area is an important factor besides DO level.

[ImagineAquatics]

Thanks for all of your insight folks! I understand that you all want to vent at the impossibility of the design, and many of your concerns are very relevant! Products are never as good as they are hyped up to be, now are they? I know there is no way to convince any of you that this works as well as it does (I am a skeptic too , so I won't try.

Lexus - I really appreciate the time you took to read the manual! Wow! You are dedicated to your replies! I think you should try one of these. Or talk to someone who doesn't have a vested interest who owns one (how can you believe the inventor???).

Lydia - Yes, I worked at an aquarium store for several years. We specialized in Africans. I actually got the idea to make this while working there. We had a few crappy wall mount tanks in which absolutely nothing would live. I was disgusted. I built a prototype of my design early on. It worked but was a pain to use. Several prototypes and several years later I've got what I got. Less maintenance, less work. And, I know that people seldom sell their fish that have outgrown their tanks. I know that, but that is an answer to the problem. Just because most people won't do it does not mean that it isn't the answer.

Well, if you folks like the design, or don't, I'd love to hear about it. I just wish you had one to try out. They are expensive right now, I know, but I'm working on cutting the cost down. Maybe you will be able to pick one up at your local pet store sometime. Right now you probably will only see one in a few businesses.

I now know I definitely need to keep an on line photo journal of the tanks so that one can see them progress (or decline, as most of you suspect Keep up the scrutiny, it's good for the business!

Again, thanks for the interest!

[ImagineAquatics]

One of my associates just suggested something very interesting to me that I'd like to propose to you. Since most of you seem to have a wealth of information regarding proper stocking of smaller aquariums, and most of us specialize in marine fish or cichlids(funny that we should make a mini-tank, isn't it?), perhaps you could contribute to our user guide. If any of you have ideas for improvement or previous writings that would fit well into our guide, I would be very grateful. We are a very small firm, and we are just starting off. We are currently thinking about developing user reference software for our aquarium. It will contain a tool to assist in choosing livestock, a maintenance calendar printer, and some other interesting tools that our CS guy came up with. The problem for us is not to design the software to do the job, it is in coming up with pictures and info about the individual species of fish, and other information to fill the guide with. Eventually the guide will cover larger aquariums. Does anyone know of any links to sites who may allow us to use their information for our software. It will be free ware (perhaps open source?), so anyone will be able to use it, but we will supply them with all of our aquariums. Does something like this exist, or are we reinventing the wheel? Any thoughts?

When I decided to start this business, my goal was to make a product that would allow someone with minimal space and minimal time to enjoy the fish keeping hobby. We all know that it was pretty intimidating to get that first aquarium (at least it was for me), and most people just decide not to do it. I feel that the average person doesn't want to keep an aquarium because of the time and knowledge necessary to keep one going. To solve this problem, one needs to create an aquarium that requires minimal intervention. For this reason, our goal is to eventually automate as completely as possible the day to day operations of the aquarium. We aren't nearly there yet, but we are working on that goal every day. I believe that once people have a chance to enjoy an aquarium for a while, they will naturally want to learn more about it. It may be a stepping stone that leads to a larger tank and new possibilities of livestock.

Thanks again for your replies! I appreciate every one, especially the criticism! I love the opportunity to improve our products and methods!

[ImagineAquatics]

You guys got have convinced me to reevaluate my 'inches per gallon' system completely. Check out this link:

http://www.fishforums.com/forum/show...1265#post41265