guppy colour genetics - FishForums.com
Logo


members chatting


Welcome to the FishForums.com.

Find the answers to your fish problems or questions here on FishForums.com by using the search box below:



Go Back   FishForums.com > Freshwater > Livebearers

Livebearers Discussions about Livebearers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-19-2005, 08:57 PM   #1
guppyart
Naked wookie
 
guppyart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: canada
Age: 25
Posts: 809
Default guppy colour genetics

okay I have been breeding guppies for 3 years now and I have never seen any info on colour genetics. I would like to know what colours are domninant or recessive genes as well as patterns and there genes. I am currently trying to keep a yellow snakeskin pattern going the male is whitish and the snakeskin pattern is yellow and I need more info for breeding him. I have his siblings still and I would like to know what breeding program should I use to perfect him linebreeding inbreeding or outcrossing I have 4 tanks for doing this in.

The genetics I have knowledge of are.
Albino(aa).
Blond(bb).
Gold (gg).
Blue (rr ).
double recessive colours
WHITE(Blond x Blue, bbrr)
CREME(Blond x Gold, bbgg)
SILVER(Gold x Blue, ggrr)
__________________
photography
guppyart is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-19-2005, 10:54 PM   #2
TheOldSalt
Darth Ichthyos

 
TheOldSalt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,691
Default

Entire books have been written on this, but most of them only say "we don't know much yet."
I'll sift through some of them and get back to you with what I find. I've also been scouring the internet for this info over the past few days, so there's some more for me to look through for the answers.
TheOldSalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2005, 11:04 PM   #3
guppyart
Naked wookie
 
guppyart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: canada
Age: 25
Posts: 809
Default

Originally Posted by TheOldSalt
Entire books have been written on this, but most of them only say "we don't know much yet."
I'll sift through some of them and get back to you with what I find. I've also been scouring the internet for this info over the past few days, so there's some more for me to look through for the answers.
thanks so much I have been looking and looking but I havn't come up with much yet. I hope you have better luck.
__________________
photography
guppyart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 09:38 AM   #4
doggydad38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 201
Default

The former moderator has another website called Guppy Designer. I can't remember the web address. I do a search for the webisite and click on the link. You have to join the site to access the information on color genetics.
Tony
doggydad38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 09:53 AM   #5
guppyart
Naked wookie
 
guppyart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: canada
Age: 25
Posts: 809
Default

Originally Posted by doggydad38
The former moderator has another website called Guppy Designer. I can't remember the web address. I do a search for the webisite and click on the link. You have to join the site to access the information on color genetics.
Tony
thanks I think I remeber something like that.
__________________
photography
guppyart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 11:21 AM   #6
TheOldSalt
Darth Ichthyos

 
TheOldSalt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,691
Default

Guppy designer is a paysite, and frankly, by all accounts it's worth it. They have a book on CD available with probably the most complete collection of practical & useful guppy genetic information in the world.
However, every time I try to go there, my computer freezes up completely. The page might even load okay sometimes, but the second I touch the slider bar to scroll down, it freezes. I would love to order that CD, but I I don't guess I can.

baby_baby, what did you find, and where is it?
TheOldSalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 04:48 PM   #7
guppyart
Naked wookie
 
guppyart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: canada
Age: 25
Posts: 809
Default

okay thanks baby.
I got more info from a guppy site the guy that told has been breeding for years so he is reputable.

and this anwsers my questions hope this helps any serious breeders out there.


genes/colors and their location:
Body colors (all autosomal) are:
- grey - dominant over all over body colors
- gold/tiger/bronze - recessive
- blond/gold - recessive
- albino/rrea – recessive, there are two different genes which cause the albino phenotype and which can’t be differentiated
- lutino/wrea – recessive
- there are three types of blau: one blau –gene shows no red and no yellow
another blau gene could show reduced red but no yellow
and the other blau gene (this one is called “hellblau”, this is a German word which means light blue) could show yellow e.g. snake skin
- pink is something special because of its peculiarities, it has a reduced number of the big black colour cells (melanophores) and it looks like tiger in its pure manifestation (without the hb). In the combination with the Nigrocaudatus 2 gene (it’s the gene for half black/tuxedo) the back becomes pink, that was the reason for the name “pink”, because the first guppies with this body colour where pink half blacks. It is suspected that they have also an increased number of iridophores. - cream - double recessive, gold + tiger
- white - double recessive, blau + gold
- silver - double recessive, blau + tiger
- “super white” – triple recessive, blau + gold + albino
- you can breed more combinations but only for these double and triple recessive body colours exists a specific name

Some (not all!) colors:
1. colors for the fore-body (the belly, until the beginning of dorsal in their original appearance):
- coral is a metallic red which is in most cases y-linked but there should be one x-linked strain in Germany too. In Germany we call it “neon” . In the combination with one of the blau genes it becomes light blue.
- moscow is a y-linked gene in most cases but there are some x-linked strains too. It is a metallic silver until dark blue colour. The intensity depends of the mood of the male. You can find this gene in metal heads (y-linked moscow + y-linked snake skin) or moscow blues (y-linked moscow + y-linked blue + x-linked blue) or in moscow greens and moscow purples
- Schimmelpfennig Metall (this is the original German name) or platinum is a metallic white/yellow/bright purple/bright blue. It is y-linked in most cases but there are some x-linked strains e.g. in Japan too.
- lazuli is a light blue which is y-linked (I don’t know it for sure, because only the Japanese breed it and in Europe there are no lines of this strain, so I had to use a online-translation which could be wrong)

2. colors for the lower-back:
- half black (it is the Nigrocaudatus 2 gene) is a x-linked gene in most cases but there are some y-linked strains too. It is a more or less black colour. It could become dark blue too after some selective breeding ( you have to increase the number of iridophores which lay above the melanophores) . In combination with the platinum it seems to be greenish.
- japan blue/aquamarine is a light blue which is a y-linked gene in most cases but there are some x-linked strains too.
- Störzbach (Stoerzbach) metal is a recessive and autosomal metallic blue, but in combination with other colour-genes it makes them a metallic colour e.g. Mikarif (Stoerzbach metal + snake skin)

There a lot of colours which consists of several different genes for example full reds. There are 6 (perhaps more) different genes for red and they can be y-linked, x-linked and autosomal, some are dominant and others are recessive, so it’s very difficult to talk about reds and full reds. Some colours are shown on the whole body e.g. snake skin. And some colors are shown on the body and the fins e.g. blues (in blue delta IFGA strains), parrish and hutter greens, snake skins, reds, purples, 3/4 blacks etc.

The problem is that some body-colours or normal colours also effect the form of the caudal e.g. you cannot create a half black double sword. There are some genes which are not really a colour like red, but the effect the caudal form too. The x-linked gene "cp" is such a gene. It causes a dark pigmentation of the caudal and together with the “double sword-gene” it causes a delta tail. The delta tail always consists of two or more genes. There has to be the “double sword-gene” (which can be y- or x-linked) and a colour gene for the caudal. Sometimes the male has both necessary genes or the female has both genes or each sex has only one of these genes, but in all these case you got a delta tail.

I hope you can see that the genetic of the guppy is very complex and to create a new strain is a lot of hard work and a great challenge.
__________________
photography
guppyart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 05:29 PM   #8
blixem
Senior Member
 
blixem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Athens, GA
Age: 39
Posts: 144
Default

Holy... no wonder I never got interested in breeding guppies! =)
blixem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 05:31 PM   #9
guppyart
Naked wookie
 
guppyart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: canada
Age: 25
Posts: 809
Default

Originally Posted by blixem
Holy... no wonder I never got interested in breeding guppies! =)
ya I know its insane there is so much knowledge
__________________
photography
guppyart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 10:26 PM   #10
guppyart
Naked wookie
 
guppyart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: canada
Age: 25
Posts: 809
Default

Originally Posted by Baby_Baby
i love genetics. its so fun to study. lol. i'm such a nerd.
we all keep fish don't we.
being a nerd is fun.
__________________
photography
guppyart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2005, 08:59 PM   #11
Lexus
Senior Member
 
Lexus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Age: 28
Posts: 2,387
Default

You two seem to turn every post into a chit chat section there is MSN messenger you know!
__________________
55 Gallon
1 Fantail Goldfish
1 Albino Bristlenose
4 African Dwarf Frogs
4 Black Skirt Tetras
4 Angelfish
3 Zebra Danios
14? Assorted Corys

46 Gallon
8 Tiger Barbs
8 Pulcher/Brichardi Cichlids

29 Gallon
1 Snail
1 Betta
8 Pulcher/Brichardi Fry
Lexus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2008, 12:19 PM   #12
starsunmoon
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 38
Posts: 11
Default

well I have been searching !!! for delta blues. ...... I THANK YOU BOTH for all this info !!! I have just purchased 2 dozen guppy fry and he called them delta blues.... so now I wanted to know what that meant , this post has been VERY helpful to me and I am glad you guys can chit chat you stAYED omn the subject at hand, I dont see any problem, THANK YOU 2 SOO MUCH ESP ..guppyart your info has helped me to know that I am indeed getting a nice breed of fish, and not some feeder fish ... thanxs !!!!!!!!~~~~~
starsunmoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2008, 07:17 AM   #13
TheOldSalt
Darth Ichthyos

 
TheOldSalt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,691
Default

Hey, hey, a 2 & 1/2 year old thread resurrection! WhooHoo!
( Sadly, that's not even close to the record... )

Anyway, Blue Deltas are guppies with the "standard american-style" triangular tails, ( Delta-shaped, that is, ) and those tails are a solid deep blue color. Very nice fish. You'll like them.

Guppies.com is another very good place to look for incredible amounts of guppy info.

I think I'm going to sticky this thread since it's so chock full of guppy goodness.
TheOldSalt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2008, 12:16 AM   #14
starsunmoon
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 38
Posts: 11
Default thanxs !! salt, sorry for the old post reply..ooppss..

yea I need to look at dates when i do a search, but I got carried away there in that one......LOL< but thanxs !! I am still in awaiting for my guppy,. I have a aquabidder sending me some common' guppy, hopefully I get a few nice ones and dont have to trade them all' into the lfs. LOL< but uknow greg would try to help me out there...hhmm.....anyway my molly are having babies !! I have 6 that are left in the tank with all of them, so far, so good. (well with the 6 left, they are getting bigger and growing good. there in a 29 gallon with 3 black molly, 2 are male. and one gold molly, female, and 2 white or silver(not sure were bought as white, ) both female, and one silver, female, A female dalmation ~~mommy" ~~~~~ and I belive the only males are the 2 black ones, I would have to ck again, 2 are reg finned, and most are lyrtail. sorry bout brining up old post, lol, but ooppss newbie here if the name display doesnt say it all..LOL, but I have had fish my whole life, and im getting into debt now since my divorce...lmao, my addiction is currantly ~ fish. I have many tanks, many fish, but I belive I want to breed some angels, (I dont have any yet ) and the bristlnose plecos again have to buy em.. I have some sherry barbs, they would be neat to breed . and well, I have to start selling some fish to help pay for this mokey on my back ..hehe.......thanxs salt, I will try to read the dates b4 I post from now on... lol. cant wait to get my pics up and show off my fisheys !! I have a 45 eco with red cherry shrimp that I have spent a fortune in !! might as well show it off !! lol, ok meet you all soon , ( In a newer thread...haha) buh-bye~!!
starsunmoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2008, 12:21 PM   #15
guppy_nut
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
Posts: 6
Default this might help you out

Guppyart this might help you out some. i have been working on crossing guppies for 3 years now. and a friend of mine sent this to me so i will pass it on to you and by the way very nice name guppyart.

For example when your cross a grey guppy (GG) with a gold guppy(gg), your will get guppy of these four different genotype (GG), (Gg), (gG) & (gg). All 3 fish with genotype (GG), (Gg), (gG) will turn out to be a grey guppy, in this case gene (G) is considered dominant over other gene (g).
Recessive - A gene in which the trait it represent will not show because its dominanted by another gene it pair with is considered recessive.

Refer to the example above, those guppy with genotype(Gg) will turn out to be grey instead of gold because the gold gene (g) is recessive. Only instance when you can have a gold body guppy is when the guppy have this genotype (gg).

Homozygous - Paired genes that are the same at the same locus(location). Using the above example we can say that a gold body guppy have homozygous gold body trait.

Heterozygous - Paired genes that are different. Referring to the example above, the grey guppy with (Gg) & (gG) genotype are heterozygous.

We commonly refer a heterozygous guppy as one that does not breed true

We commonly refer a homozygous guppy as one that breed true

genes/colors and their location:
Body colors (all autosomal) are:
- grey - dominant over all over body colors
- gold/tiger/bronze - recessive
- blond/gold - recessive
- albino/rrea – recessive, there are two different genes which cause the albino phenotype and which can’t be differentiated
- lutino/wrea – recessive
- there are three types of blau: one blau –gene shows no red and no yellow
another blau gene could show reduced red but no yellow
and the other blau gene (this one is called “hellblau”, this is a German word which means light blue) could show yellow e.g. snake skin
- pink is something special because of its peculiarities, it has a reduced number of the big black colour cells (melanophores) and it looks like tiger in its pure manifestation (without the hb). In the combination with the Nigrocaudatus 2 gene (it’s the gene for half black/tuxedo) the back becomes pink, that was the reason for the name “pink”, because the first guppies with this body colour where pink half blacks. It is suspected that they have also an increased number of iridophores. - cream - double recessive, gold + tiger
- white - double recessive, blau + gold
- silver - double recessive, blau + tiger
- “super white” – triple recessive, blau + gold + albino
- you can breed more combinations but only for these double and triple recessive body colours exists a specific name
Some (not all!) colors:
1. colors for the fore-body (the belly, until the beginning of dorsal in their original appearance):
- coral is a metallic red which is in most cases y-linked but there should be one x-linked strain in Germany too. In Germany we call it “neon” . In the combination with one of the blau genes it becomes light blue.
- moscow is a y-linked gene in most cases but there are some x-linked strains too. It is a metallic silver until dark blue colour. The intensity depends of the mood of the male. You can find this gene in metal heads (y-linked moscow + y-linked snake skin) or moscow blues (y-linked moscow + y-linked blue + x-linked blue) or in moscow greens and moscow purples
- Schimmelpfennig Metall (this is the original German name) or platinum is a metallic white/yellow/bright purple/bright blue. It is y-linked in most cases but there are some x-linked strains e.g. in Japan too.
- lazuli is a light blue which is y-linked (I don’t know it for sure, because only the Japanese breed it and in Europe there are no lines of this strain, so I had to use a online-translation which could be wrong)

2. colors for the lower-back:
- half black (it is the Nigrocaudatus 2 gene) is a x-linked gene in most cases but there are some y-linked strains too. It is a more or less black colour. It could become dark blue too after some selective breeding ( you have to increase the number of iridophores which lay above the melanophores) . In combination with the platinum it seems to be greenish.
- japan blue/aquamarine is a light blue which is a y-linked gene in most cases but there are some x-linked strains too.
- Störzbach (Stoerzbach) metal is a recessive and autosomal metallic blue, but in combination with other colour-genes it makes them a metallic colour e.g. Mikarif (Stoerzbach metal + snake skin)

There a lot of colours which consists of several different genes for example full reds. There are 6 (perhaps more) different genes for red and they can be y-linked, x-linked and autosomal, some are dominant and others are recessive, so it’s very difficult to talk about reds and full reds. Some colours are shown on the whole body e.g. snake skin. And some colors are shown on the body and the fins e.g. blues (in blue delta IFGA strains), parrish and hutter greens, snake skins, reds, purples, 3/4 blacks etc.

The problem is that some body-colours or normal colours also effect the form of the caudal e.g. you cannot create a half black double sword. There are some genes which are not really a colour like red, but the effect the caudal form too. The x-linked gene "cp" is such a gene. It causes a dark pigmentation of the caudal and together with the “double sword-gene” it causes a delta tail. The delta tail always consists of two or more genes. There has to be the “double sword-gene” (which can be y- or x-linked) and a colour gene for the caudal. Sometimes the male has both necessary genes or the female has both genes or each sex has only one of these genes, but in all these case you got a delta tail.

I hope you can see that the genetic of the guppy is very complex and to create a new strain is a lot of hard work and a great challenge. Feel free to ask me f you have any problems concerning the basic genetic of you guppy.
Only the male can show y-linked traits. But they can also show x-linked taits or a mix of y- and of x-linked traits. Y-linked means that the gene(s) for this trait are on the Y-chromosome. It's the same with x-linked.
Females can't show all traits because there is a lack of some special colorcells in their skin. They have all kinds of colorcells but they have less cells of certain kinds than the males.
If a y-linked gene becomes x-linked because of a crossing-over the appearance of the phenotype of this trait on the females could be the same as on the males. But sometimes there are some changes in the appearance e.g. japan blue. Females with x-linked japan blue don't show any blue on the body, they only show sometimes some blue on the caudal. Don't ask me why they don't show it. Full gold females show that females have enough iridophores to show metalic colors. You see the same genotype (same genes) doesn't mean the same phenotype (this what you can see with your eyes if you look on the fsih) at both sexes.
It's like every science: there are more questions than answers and even if got the answer to one question there two new questions in this one answer.
Outcrosses
When making outcrosses you want to cross with lines that you are pretty sure are going to give the desired results. Somewhere around 80% to 90% of outcrosses produce fish that are inferior to both parents. When you are selecting which strains of fish you would like to work with, it is advantageous to select lines that can be used to improve each other. Over the years I nave Kept a mental catalog of the crosses that have worked well. Today, these crosses are the backbone of my breeding program. Below are some of the crosses that have worked well in my fish room using my lines. These are pretty well tested crosses so they should work for most lines of these colors.

Reds and H/B Reds: I will use the gold bodied red males into the gray bodied h/b red females to improve the h/b reds. First generation will give 100% h/b reds. These are show stoppers. I then discard all the females from the cross and breed the males back to the pure gray bodied h/b red females. The downside of this cross is losing the deep h/b body color in the males. Always select the females with the darkest body color. (Note: you can create an excellent gray red line by saving some of the F1 females and crossing them back to the pure gold red males. The resultant offspring will be 25% gray reds.)

Reds and Albinos: I will cross the gold red males into the albino females to improve the albino line. The F1 is 100% gray reds. I then take these gray red males back to the pure albino females. Theoretically you should get 30% albinos, but I usually end up with 25-30%. You can then brother/sister these again for about three generations without much loss in vigor or fertility.

Purples and Greens: One of the best kept secrets in the hobby! This cross works both ways and will produce some excellent blues as well. The purple is dominant and will darken the greens considerably. With this in mind, use the lightest green colored male into the purple females to produce bigger and better greens. To improve the purples, cross the purple males into the green females. To select the grown females from the hybrid cross, shine a flashlight on them at night with the lights turned off. The green females will have a green crescent at the base of the peduncle and the purple females will have a purple crescent.

Variegated Yellow Snakeskin and H/B AOC (leopard): To improve the pattern in the h/b Aocs, cross the snake males into h/b females. In my lines the h/b is X linked and dominant. This means that the resulting offspring will all be h/b. Take the best male from the cross and breed them back to the pure h/b females. I use this cross about every 5 or 6 generations in my h/b aoc line.

H/B Pastel and Pastels: To improve the size and finnage of the pastels, cross a gold bodied white pastel into a gray bodied h/b pastel female. The offspring from this cross will be washed out gray bodied h/b pastels. Take the best of these males and breed them back to the pure gold bodied pastel females. The offspring will be 50% gold bodied pastels. These will be bigger and more vigorous than the original pastel line.

Blue/Green Bicolors and Yellow Variegated Snakeskins: Take the largest blue/green male (don't worry too much about the color pattern) and cross this fish with the snake females. Take the males from this cross and breed them back to the bl/gr females. I have some excellent bl/gr bis coming up from this exact cross.
guppy_nut is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Guppy Alin10123 General Freshwater 3 10-03-2005 01:03 PM
Please Help, I Got A Very Sick Guppy! Fish_daddy Beginner Freshwater 11 05-25-2005 09:06 AM
Marine guppy? Vivid-Dawn Livebearers 4 04-10-2005 10:38 AM
Several guppy fry questions mliscool2003 Livebearers 1 03-29-2005 12:12 PM
guppy colour genetics guppyart Livebearers 8 01-27-2005 05:39 PM