Proof God is real.

[lohachata]

hmmmm..is there a difference between catholic and Catholic.i doubt that the use of an upper case letter matters.my being anti catholic is from my personal experience with the church..from 2 different occasions.i am not against the people of that faith.i am against the church and how it treats people that are not of that faith.

[jones57742]

Originally Posted by lohachata hmmmm..is there a difference between catholic and Catholic.i doubt that the use of an upper case letter matters.

catholic: of, relating to, or forming the church universal

Anglicans make the distinction with capitalization, thusly:
Catholic: refers to the Roman Catholic Church

John: the above are commonly accepted capatilization distinctions and in my world there is a ton of difference.

TR

[InuGirlTeen]

Okay, my number one theory...

How come everything we know, see, and understand must have been created by some higher power... but then the higher power is allowed to just 'be'?

People say that God created everything and then the world makes sense to them. To mean, I'm left with a question just as large... Who created God?

It's much easier to just ignore it all, assume that we are just a speck in a movement of time that will never be understood, and go on with our lives. You can't know everything and out of this fear, there came God. God is nothing more than a shield against fear, which to me is ultimately useless. You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife, and then you spend your life fearing whether or not you'll be passed into heaven. What the hell?

I'm not an atheist, because by saying that I am, I'm admiting that there is a God to deny.

[Knight~Ryder]

Originally Posted by InuGirlTeen You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife, and then you spend your life fearing whether or not you'll be passed into heaven.

What do you do yourself? We all do wacky and quirky things to make our lives seem meaningful. Even if it's going to school to become sucessful, to have a "great" life.

We all create things (or think we do) to make our life worth living. For me personally, I have tried everything out there that people deem important and I find no satisfaction in any of it. Not fully anyhow.

Check out this song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYQWLhPzn64

Here is a quote from it

man, they swear they so gangsta but everyones the same/ everybody do the same stuff/ tattoo, piercing/ smokin' up and drinking/ money and sex plus them extravagant weekends/ if that's the high life/ I'll puff puff pass that/ you leave evaporated like you missing a gas cap/ I guess I'm passed that/cause I am in rebellion/ I'd rather have a dollar in my pocket than a mill-ion/ I'm scared to worship money, and my wants over Elyon/

Now again I am not judgeing anyone. I can't change anyone and I don't want to try. It's not my job. I do however keep my eyes set on greater things and I don't live just for the future.

You said "You spend your entire life fearing death so you create the afterlife,"

Well maybe some people do, and there could very well be an afterlife but I don't focus on that myself.

"Jesus said "the Kingdom of God is within you" in Luke 17:21"

Many people forget those words...

The Kingdom of Heaven, and the Kingdom of God, are literally interchangable in understanding.
This kingdom is spiritual in nature, and starts with the spiritual awareness of Christ, and the grace of His father God, and knowing he died for you. . it grows in us, according to our understanding, and faithfulness to God, through Jesus. . and in the next world it is us, the members of this kingdom, who will be reunited, and be forever with our Lord. . This kingdom is part of our inheritance.

This was completely new to Old Testament people, who built their whole existance on keeping laws and rituals, given to them by the Jewish leaders in the synogoges. Their whole justification was by how well they followed the law, customs, ordinances and commands of the church. The only righteousness they could attain to, was self righteousness. . Now we are covered by the righteousness of Jesus, free, and with love.

[InuGirlTeen]

I'd rather live my own life my own way than follow a bunch of crap that was created by man, which by the way, I believe to be the most destructive and ignorant species on Earth. Believe what you want.

[Knight~Ryder]

Originally Posted by InuGirlTeen I'd rather live my own life my own way than follow a bunch of crap that was created by man, which by the way, I believe to be the most destructive and ignorant species on Earth. Believe what you want.

There are many things created by man that are not religion related.
You grew up and listened to your parents right?
You went to school and listened to everything the teachers taught you right?
You do things a certain way because other people do it that way right?

If you think that we are the most destructive and ignorant species on earth, wouldnt it be because everyone has the attitude of doing things their own way. Pride comes before a fall.

Again I will say that until a person learns to walk in humility and let go of all pride and even certain "belief systems" he will never understand the "kindom of heaven" That goes for me and all of mankind.

Many people have the attitude that "my way is the right way." I say, I don't have the answers and I always seek to walk in humilty and admit that I know nothing, then go from there.

"In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe , where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America where it became an enterprise."

I don't want to follow anything just to follow it. In fact I don't even need to be called a certain "label" because I am more then that. We all label and judge one another in various shapes and forms, it's admitting it that is the hardest. Everything we got in life was from another person somewhere along the road. So none of us actually believe what we want to.

That's when I let go of every label and way of thinking. I go into the depths of my heart and stay in the peace and tranquility that has always been there but chose to ignore. That's where "God" is. That's where I learn to grow in wisdom and truth. Never, ever will I find it in the things of this world.

[Knight~Ryder]

This song is touching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibE0oTMMKXo

Originally written for the Vietnam war back in the 70's

Verse 2 hits home pretty hard.

"Many years have come and gone
Yet this world remains the same
Empires have been built and fallen
Only time has made a change
Nation against nation
Brother against brother
Men so filled with hatred
Killing one another
And over half the world is starving
While our banner of decency is torn
Debating over disarmament
Killing children before they're born
And fools who march to win the right
To justify their sin
Oh, every nation that has fallen
Has fallen from within"

[lohachata]

try reading this little book..my favorite book by my favorite author..
"The Prophet" by Kahlil Gibran

[shev]

I don't think debating deserves the stigma it has, especially on the interwebs.

I have thought this myself but then I ask the question why do the innocent get raped, murdered, robbed, etc, etc. What is the logical answer to that?

To be an Atheist, you have to answer whether you think a god exists or not. To be a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, Jew, or whatever, you have to answer the question whether your god exists and the others don't. At this fork in the road, you may as well just start flipping coins, as dumb luck is the biggest factor in any religion's number of followers, not evidence toward that religion since they essentially all have the same amount of credible "Evidence". That dumb luck, of course, is geography, where someone just so *happens* to be born.

After someone chooses they believe there is a god, everything after that I think is a baseless assumption on what that god will be like. All religions use assumptions, that I think have no merit, as the core of their beliefs, it's why they all require faith. They can only guess or assume evidence for their religion is true, such as things in their holy books. So, your assumption, "if there is a god, there wouldn't be rape or murder" is really just as baseless as any of their logic. You have no reason to assume that if there is a god, he'd follow that reasoning.

Now, as for the video, the dude makes the same mistake. He talks about how we don't know how the universe was formed, and then jumps to the conclusion his god did it. He says "We dont know what created matter, time, or space. We can conclude it's awesomely powerful and intelligent, and suddenly the picture starts to form." Well, that's a pretty large jump to go from "we don't know" to "God did it", and it's based on an assumption with no evidence. Well what happens when we do know? When we figure it out? If you look at how much time religion has had to answer such questions as "what created the universe?" and compare that to how long science has been answering questions, it's only a matter of time before such timeless questions are answered. Instead of filling in the gaps and "I dunno's" with "God did it by___", they've been converted from "I dunno's" to scientific theories. The universe is on the list, and it's amazing how much evidence there already is supporting some theories of how it all came to be. The most successful and long-living religion won't be the one with the most evidence and "proof". It will be the religion with the least proof to be refuted.

Anway, just my 2 cents.

[Knight~Ryder]

I said this earlier concerning your quote on the innocent being hurt.

Some people say that God isn't real because they "can't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is all-powerful, then He should stop all this evil." But what is evil? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally wrong: it's murder, rape, lying, cheating, stealing. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, what about our evil thoughts? Where do you stop? The murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil we have to be consistent, we can't pick and choose.

[jones57742]

KN:

Please excuse my lecturing here but you are coming on way, way to strong.

Other than aggravating John wrt capitalization I have stayed out this but you could easily tell my persuasions by several paragraphs in my first post, ie.

Originally Posted by jones57742 The definition of a Christian is like physics in that it gets real simple real quick. Either you do or do not believe that a feller was walking on this Earth approximately 2000 years ago, died, and several days later was up and walking around again or you do not*. I have not observed this occurrence and have never known anyone who has.

and that I am a half a... biblical (scholar is way to strong of a word but front cover to back many times just like the Trimble GPS theory and applications text [like 3-4" three ring binders] yes) by

Originally Posted by jones57742 ... the various letters of His Apostles to the early Christian churches ...

I really do not mean to hurt your feelings here and I know where you are coming from wrt passages predicating that you publish your beliefs but you are alienating folks here.

Also your posts are fairly "one sided" and what I mean by this is that you are depicted in your wedding tux in your avatar (I believe) but you have not addressed Paragraph 7, Sentences 7, 8, and 9 in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians.

Also you are aware of the one of the most recognized quotes in the Gospel of John and are really tiptoeing around it in your posts as who knows:

Originally Posted by jones57742 Does a universe need creation? If not this is a "no brainer" as it has always existed through its' expansion and contractions and life has been generated via processes in the nonequilibrium branch of thermodynamics which we not currently comprehend.

Also, as you are the predominant contributor to this thread, I would appreciate your thoughts with respect to

Originally Posted by jones57742 The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.

Once again KR I am not trying to hurt your feelings here and I do know where you are coming from with respect to an edict but, if by your posts, no one is listening then you are not accomplishing the intent of the edict.

TR

[Knight~Ryder]

My feelings are not hurt by anything you are saying. In fact, I don't even take offense to anything anyone else says. I used to though, when the truth of life wasn't real to me. Now I basiclly live and let live, though I do like to see what other people have to say concerning certain topics. I'm sure as I get older that will dwindle down though.

You are talking about John here, then I'm sure you know

11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

It gets real simple as well once we know who the "son" is. I used to mistake many things Jesus said and use them for my own benifit. In fact, I may still do that today.

Let me give you my testimony if you will listen
I wrote this about a month ago for all to see, so I will post it here for you. Hopefully this will let you know where I'm coming from a little better.

I have been noticing quite a bit that the more I am taking a stand in faith, there has been more persecution, more attacks on me. (or rather what I am saying) First of all, I never mean to come down in judgement against anyone. In fact I do it all out of a great love for all of you. Will you chose to love me back? No one around me is perfect, neither am I in any way perfect. I never claim to be better then anyone, so don't get it confused when I speak of greater more pure things and add my thoughts here and there. I am striving to be stripped of all pride and walk in humility. I am growing as are all of you. It is better to be hated for what you are..than to be loved for what you are not..stand for what you believe in..even if you have to stand alone.

Walk with me as I tell you a little about my life.

I used to just sit around and not care for my fellow neighbor/brother/sister. I was only interested in pleasing myself and how I could gain something out of life. Even seeking after God was a selfish thing, because I was still trying to find a way out for me as I was tired of living in a world that is so backwards. Once I was finding a way out, I began to realise it wasn't about me anymore. I see now that we are not put on this earth for ourselves, but for each other and for one another. No one is higher then the other.

My whole view on life has changed for the better and only because I sought after truth. I don't find my worth in this world anymore. Many years I tried to find my worth but never could. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't live up to other peoples standards. I always did what they wanted me to do, and when I got there it wasn't enough. When I didn't work, I was told to work, when I worked, I was told to work harder, when I worked harder, I was told to do more, more more more . I even ran my own business and that still was not enough. Some people saw and still see my self worth in material things and how I look, and what I've done. HOW SHALLOW right? Well, we all have been there and some are still there. Trying to find ourselves in this backwards life we call the world. Someone needs to take a stand (and I don't mean in pride) I mean for the truth.

Knowing "about" God is not enough. Believing in a certain faith is not enough! There seems to be a billion paths that really don't lead anywhere. I know, I have searched and searched! We say what is good for one person is not good for the other. Is this statement really truth? It can't be. There can only be one truth! Yeah yeah I know....I heard all about Jesus, and living this so called "Christian" life and I thought I knew it all. Or did I? Was knowing "about" God enough? Sure, I was lectured about God and all his ways MENTALLY speaking, but nothing ever hit my heart. So I thought I could find it elsewhere. I searched more and more, into all types of Philosophy, religion and spiritual things. I spent countless years in what I thought was finding "God" to me, just getting more and more confused and never having that total peace I was told I could have. I was putting myself through torment, pain and agony.

LOOK AT THIS WORLD I yelled out! LOOK AT IT. It's insane! Everyone is two faced! I knew I was in a backwards world, but I didn't know how to get out! I knew I couldn't find my self worth in material things and other people, (I got that far yes, or did I) but I still strived for it. WHAT WAS I MISSING! WHAT WAS I DOING WRONG I kept thinking, thinking, thinking. Mentally trying to figure everything out.

That's where my heart grew cold and hard. I gave up. I said it couldn't be done. There is no God. There is no hope. There is no peace. I wanted to end my life. It wasn't worth living in this sick, twisted world right? Where wrong is right and where right is wrong. I wanted it all to end. Good thing I still has strength to breathe. (and thats about all) When I finally let go, and I mean LET GO, things started to change. I began to search the words of Jesus again, replaying them over and over again such as ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." and in John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. As I was reading these, I also stumbled across Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. That hit me pretty hard, because that explained the sheer turmoil I was in.
I knew my view was not in line with Gods view, it was still from mans view so I knew I was missing something. The more I began to put my focus onto Jesus and his words of life and truth, I started to rise up outside of myself, out of my pride and my lust for this world. In Luke 9:23-24 it says "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever would save his own life shall lose it; but whoever wants to lose his life for My sake will find it." At first it was hard, I felt it was a struggle, a battle, a fight and it was, O boy it was, but the more I stayed focused on the things of God, my appetite for the world got smaller and smaller. I saw the world for what it was in all it's insanity and double standards all the while seeing the world as a place that needs love, that needed guidance, that needed Jesus. Even if they didn't understand it! God began to give me a love for people, even that I had hated in the past. I began to understand forgiveness and the purpose of Jesus giving up his life and him saying "It is finished".

Look what he did, people mocked, laughed, spit, and beat him, while he was loving them, and spreading love. Sure he called out the pharisees and sadducees who thought themselves to be the most holy and the most perfect, but because they were blind! They said they saw, but they didn't see a thing! Don't we do that today, we walk as if we can see and walk as if we know it all in our selfish pride. It's always our opinion that matters, and we mock those who see things differently. The other way around, we get to a point where we are just coasting along and we say whatever happens happens . We allow ourselves to slip into the world, not making as much as a sound so that people can hear the truth. We take our focus off of Jesus, and his ultimate love for us all and get weaker to the point of going back to our old state of living. Some of us have the truth, but we don't give it! Or, we try to get more truth for our gain! That is not experiencing the full truth, understanding and knowing full truth will come when we are stripped of all our pride, and remember in Luke 8:16 No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light.


I will no longer sit around and be like the rest of the world and sit in confusion and darkness, I've been there. That's torment. That is no way to live. If I see someone suffer I will be there to comfort and not think of myself. There is light, there is hope, but not in the things of this world. If we didn't resist God we would be in total peace, and live in total love, and total forgiveness. Humility comes from accepting the fact that we don't know it all, and letting it go and giving it to God. If I am wrong in any of my doings I ask God to guide me to show me more as to how to be used in the right way, but I will no longer sit around and be content in this life full of lies and pain, and continue to see my brother and sisters in the same torment. I have that passion to go out and show the world the love of the father through me! God forgive me for not wanting to do that!

There is only one truth and it was so simple to begin with. We complicate things so much. People have distorted the truth and made their own "religion" for their own selfish reasons! Jesus did come for a reason, his message is still very alive today for a reason. His words are more alive then ever. They are life giving. Ask God to make it a reality to you, a knowing that you experience daily, not just a ritual you perform to find worth. Your desire will grow and grow so much that you can't keep it to yourself anymore. Life will be so much more alive when your awake and see the truth. Material things won't have a hold on your life anymore. Ideas and opinions won't have a hold on your life anymore. You have the truth and nothing can take it away. It won't have to be a struggle anymore, because every inch of the truth has been ingrained into your mind, heart and soul. It's only a struggle if you resist and hold onto the past. Sure I could hold onto my past and talk about the bad things that happened to me, (and they were horrible) but it doesn't matter anymore. Realise you are not your past and you are very much alive now. I guarantee you will find nothing in this world more powerful then the simplicity of knowing Jesus and being humble enough to admit it. I promise you that.
Let us be a witness in everything we say and do. In spirit and in truth!

Now this may not be everyones experience, but it was mine. I don't push it on anyone. I simply ask that people go to their hearts and search there, that's all

Oh and one more thing, when I say TRUTH, I don't mean it as "christian" truth because already there is a label attached to that, and I really can't be defined except in and through God.

[jones57742]

Originally Posted by Knight~Ryder Let me give you my testimony if you will listen

Well of course I listened and twice (especially as much time as you spent in preparation)!

The context of your post dissuades my fear that you are alienating and not functioning as Matthew set forth in his Gospel.

You appear to (and I really hope that you) have attained the peace set forth in the fourth chapter of Paul's letter to the Philippians.

Please bear in mind though, and this is coming from an old dinosaur, John 16:33.


Could you please respond to:

Originally Posted by jones57742 ... you are depicted in your wedding tux in your avatar (I believe) but you have not addressed Paragraph 7, Sentences 7, 8, and 9 in Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians.

and

Originally Posted by jones57742 The real "burning question" in my brain for you folks who believe in a Deity is how has this Deity revealed itself to the countless number of other entities (carbon and oxygen based or not) "out there" who can contemplate their own existence.

???

I am "self taught" as apparently you are and hence would very much appreciate you responses (and may have several other "burning questions for you" subsequently).

TR

[Knight~Ryder]

Okay, this is the topic of marriage. Yes I chose to get "married". To me it is more then what the world deems as marriage. Getting married is actually an outward expression of an inward decision. I know we are all one in spirit, so no matter what I do to get close to my wife, kiss, hold hands, anything really won't matter because we are already joined as one.

Marriage is just one example of the many things we do as a tradition of man. Again, doing things to find worth. (being outwardly married doesnt mean a thing to me for the record)

When I got married I wanted it to be a testament to people of the light of God in us. I know outwardly this may never work, but I still do what I know best. I could talk for hours about the things men do to find worth...

Paul never condemed anyone who got married, read it over carefully and you will see exactly what he said. I'll leave that to you to find out. Again, I don't live by mans standards and rules. They really make no sense. There is a reason the law of moses was fulfilled through Jesus Christ.

As far as your second question. Thank God I know I am not just carbon and oxygen based. There is so much more we can't see. I don't want to just operate in the 3rd dimention. There are many more aspects to it then what we see.

I came across this.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx3tCeagaxE

[jones57742]

KN:

This is becoming counterproductive wrt my inquisitions but I appreciate your previous post.

TR