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Old 12-24-2008, 12:54 AM   #1
Knight~Ryder
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Default Supporting evidence for the theory of intelligent design in the creation of our world

8 minutes of your time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr5lY0TcdAw

Understandable?
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Old 12-24-2008, 12:59 AM   #2
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im sorry. IMO, that was a waste of 3 minutes of my life. :-/

some people just don't believe, and im one of them.
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:10 AM   #3
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Doesnt really matter if you believe or not, doesnt mean its not real. Sometimes we need to check our reality.
I'm not in it to debate. In fact it's not just a mental concept for me anymore. I live it and experience it. It's not enough for me to just "know" about God.

I forgot what I was taught about God, it's been all backwards anyhow, just like this life is.

What I "know" is an experience.

I know thats one of the best videos Ive come across myself.
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:47 AM   #4
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His ideas are fundamentally flawed. First off stating matter cannot be created or destroyed is a misconception, it simply cannot be created from nothing by people (the universe was created from essentially nothing so yes it can be created, there are a ton of theories regarding "branes" and other larger than our universe structures that gave rise to us through the big bang). Also, Matter can be transformed to and from energy, hence why the atomic bomb works, a very slight amount of the matter is converted into energy, this is also why we have the idea of the string theory. The parts of the universe (like time, energy, and matter, gravity etc) were all one and the same before the expansion of the big bang. Einstein's E=mc^2 unites the energy and mass parts of what we know to make up the universe.

Secondly, we do not know if our universe is finite or not. Which destroys much of his basis for argument. Additionally, there are a variety of ideas regarding a multiverse approach to explain our universe. If there is an infinite number of "universes" then we have an infinite number of possibilities regarding the creation of rules for physics and such. This being so, by the nature of having an infinite amount of possibilities there will be at least one in which there are just the right conditions for our own universe to exist and give us life, statistically this is true. Personally, I believe in God, my studies in genetics, cellular biology, and other areas of biology (perhaps ironically) give me faith in a great designer. But, this guy seems a bit pretentious and he obviously is parroting something he heard without having looked at secular explanations for how the universe is as we perceive it.

I believe discover had an interesting article on the multiverse in the last month or two. Here is an excellent interview about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rg3uNrI8tE

The idea that time is universal and concrete is also false. Clocks have been proven to move less quickly on very fast moving objects. Additionally heavy things like galaxies have been shown to bend light around them and even magnify objects farther behind them in a process known as gravitational lensing. Heavy things like black holes can also stretch and pull space around them. Doing so also bends and stretches time to slow it down around them as it's gravity bends the "fabric" of space/time around it.

Also, thinking about God as an infallible and completely in-control being of sorts, the whole idea of being able to be saved by doing something seems to be a contract of sorts with Him. The covenant (think ark of the covenant which holds the written down rules given to Moses) is in direct defiance of God being in complete control. What is being all-mighty when you are bound to grant access to heaven to people if they follow some rules/believe in a certain religious figure? It seems really, that complete control would be completely randomness in acts, being that no person or thing can control what will happen next and that the supreme being would not have to follow any sort of deal with us. Interestingly, the randomness sure seems to fit the idea of a multiverse with infinite possibilities and we are just one of them. I personally don't prescribe to the random God, but it does raise a good thinking point.

Bottom line: the guy is talking with an attitude and not taking into account many other ideas and basing his view on a narrow set of circumstances which are not necessarily true. And, watch that youtube clip. I thought this forum was mostly about fish?
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Old 12-24-2008, 02:24 AM   #5
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It is about fish. Whenever anyone talks about anything other then fish here in the water hole, it's a green light. As soon as it's about "God" it's a red light.

Anyhow thanks for the response
Again, remember I can learn all I want about God, but when does it actually become a reality you know. I don't want to follow a religion and go to church as a ritual to find worth.

Some folks say that all truth is relative. "It just depends on what you believe. No way we know for sure who God is and what's really true." But that means that you believe that that statement is true, "no way to know whats really true." If what's true for you is true for you, and what's true for me is true to me, what if one of my truths says your's is a lie? Is it still true?

I promise, most everyone is asking the same questions: "Who am I, what is my purpose and my direction?" Some think that they probably exist for no other reason than self-satisfaction, Hedonism, and pleasing things. "Life's about you getting your's and being happy, even if it means a divorce and switching families. Your job, your house, your car, your spouse..."

It's all for the glory of you?

"You go to school and get a degree and get a job so you make make a whole lot of money because life's hard." They never thought of living to please a real God. But that's the reason He made you. See, He gave you breath to breath and a chest to breath it, so you can taste and see He's the best. Believe it. He made us for His own own glory, and for your own.

There's some people say "Man is the source of all meaning and purpose." They say that "we're just the result of some big cosmic explosion, we don't really have a purpose or meaning so we create our own purpose. We're the source of our own meaning."

But how can a man, who is nothing but just a product of chance, be a source of meaning? We're created with purpose, by a Creator.

And everybody has a problem with God, and when you mention the Christ, then they really get to turning their knobs. But, some say they 'roll' with Christ, because some rappers make it seem like He's cool, with all that sin in their life? NO.

Some say, "How could God exist with all this evil stuff in the world keep persisting?" Wrong question. Ask again, "How come God isn't letting you feel the wrath for sin?"

Sometimes, some of the stuff you see, that you think deserves a first class flight to hell (where God doesn't dwell), well, you got that right. But He brought back life on the Cross that night. Christ died, you didn't know it cost that price? Of all God's anger put on the Son. I praise God for the life that was won for us, even if the Son was crushed.

Some people say that God isn't real because they "can't see how a good God can exist with all this evil in the world. If God is all-powerful, then He should stop all this evil." But what is evil? It's anything that's against God. It's anything morally wrong: it's murder, rape, lying, cheating, stealing. But if we want God to stop evil, do we want Him to stop it all or just a little bit? If He stops us from doing evil things, what about lying, what about our evil thoughts? Where do you stop? The murder level, the lying level, or the thinking level? If we want Him to stop evil we have to be consistent, we can't pick and choose.

That means that you and I would be eliminated, right, because we've done evil stuff? If that's true, then we should be eliminated. But thanks be to God that Jesus stepped in to save us from our sin. Christ died for our evil.

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whoever would save his own life shall lose it; but whoever wants to lose his life for My sake will find it." - Luke 9:23-24
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Old 12-24-2008, 04:47 AM   #6
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Well, this thread has been up & running for four hours so far, and so far there hasn't been a riot.
That's good. Keep it that way.
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Old 12-24-2008, 05:43 AM   #7
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I think the fact that he thinks the world is 6000 years old sums up how valid his reality is to the rest of us...
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:40 AM   #8
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He uses the concepts taught in a basic logic class to try to prove something, except he has no base fact to base his hypothesis on, standard flaw from someone who clearly didn't pay attention in class. Here's a fact. We can carbon date rocks on earth to several billion years ago. Creationists argue that carbon dating can be somewhat skewed. Scientists will agree, in that carbon dating gives you a range of a few (around 3) thousand years. If you do the math, figure out how you go from a deviation of 3 thousand years, and magically get 6 thousand from 4 billion...

Second, the bible was used to teach society about the world, and about proper behavior and morality in a society that was often brutal and uncaring. The world was created in 7 days, then Adam and Eve was born. Where were the dinosaurs!?! Isn't it possible that the bible uses the context of "days" to be a length of time that the people of that era would understand? If that is true, then a day can be anything from 24 of our hours, to a lifetime, to a millennium. It's about context.

The fact is that religion is a way for people to make sense of a world that we do not understand. It is a light for those in the dark, and gives hope to those who have none. I think religion is a critical aspect of society, because without it, people would feel they have no meaning in this ever-growing world. It originally gave answers to questions that an ordinary person could understand. Scientists do the same thing, just from a different perspective. If people are willing to be open minded about science, they will realize that science and religion often work together.

During the 16th century, any scientist was executed for believing anything other than what the Vatican taught. Galileo was executed for believing the earth revolved around the sun, rather than the opposite taught by the church. In 1992, Pope John Paul II made the announcement that the Inquisition was wrong in it's opinion of the scientist, and now Pope Benedict XVI is honoring him this coming month. People who truly believe in this archaic form of science must also believe in the teachings of the 16th century Vatican, which we all know at this point to be a false truth. If not, the astronautics must be blind. If they choose what parts to believe and what to ignore, then what are they believing in? They say that people must completely believe in God, or they completely disagree with God, but they themselves are doing the same thing.

If you believe the Bible is truly the world of God, then you should also understand that it is powerful enough to stand throughout time. The Bible is here as a guideline for moral judgment, and not a strict code that is the same now as it was when the pages were written.

I am catholic, and I study phylogenetics and evolutionary biology. It works, you just have to take the time to listen.

PS. For the creationists out there.... how bout this. God is kinda busy, with the whole managing the universe, space, and time. We are just one spec in the Universe, and really aren't that significant in the "big picture". Why couldn't God have just CREATED evolution. I fail to see why people cannot accept that things change. Hell, we can show it in out own human lineage. It's complicated, I know... I'll simplify it. If something works, it stays. If it doesn't, it gets booted out. That is natural selection. It works, and has been working for Billions of years...

This is a great comic...Link
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:53 AM   #9
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Nah, blind faith based on flawed assumptions and a poor understanding of logic has never been my thing.

There are many mysterious things that have happened in my life that I'm sure I could just say a higher power was responsible for, but I think that's a cop-out. There's a reason for everything, and an omnipotent god-figure doesn't factor into that.
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Old 12-24-2008, 10:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Sea-Agg2009 View Post

PS. For the creationists out there.... how bout this. God is kinda busy, with the whole managing the universe, space, and time. We are just one spec in the Universe, and really aren't that significant in the "big picture". Why couldn't God have just CREATED evolution. I fail to see why people cannot accept that things change. Hell, we can show it in out own human lineage. It's complicated, I know... I'll simplify it. If something works, it stays. If it doesn't, it gets booted out. That is natural selection. It works, and has been working for Billions of years...

This is a great comic...Link
I've been saying this for a long time. God CREATED GENES/EVOLUTION so that LIFE could SURVIVE on this planet. Without genes, this entire planet would be dead. The simple fact that humans have discovered GODS inner workings of providing humans everything they need to survive is a miricale in itself.
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Old 12-24-2008, 11:25 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Sea-Agg2009 View Post
He uses the concepts taught in a basic logic class to try to prove something, except he has no base fact to base his hypothesis on, standard flaw from someone who clearly didn't pay attention in class. Here's a fact. We can carbon date rocks on earth to several billion years ago. Creationists argue that carbon dating can be somewhat skewed. Scientists will agree, in that carbon dating gives you a range of a few (around 3) thousand years. If you do the math, figure out how you go from a deviation of 3 thousand years, and magically get 6 thousand from 4 billion...
I agree with most of what you are saying but carbon dating is actually only useful up to about 60,000 years ago (although growing up my text books had always said 40k) and is only used for organic material. Carbon-14 is the radioactive isotope that we use to measure how long since the time the material stopped adding carbon to it. The idea of carbon-14 dating is that there is a certain amount in the atmosphere and plants fix it during photosynthesis in the form of sugars and such which animals eat. Animals get carbon from plants (or other animals which have in-tern eaten plants) and so there is a certain amount of carbon-14 incorporated in everything as our bodies (or whatever plant structures) work. Accumulation of it stops when the organism dies and using the half-life of the material you can get a general date for the time it existed. Carbon-14 is one of several radiometric forms of absolute dating we use but because it only has a half life of somewhere around 5700 years you'd need a huge chunk of organic material to still be around and FULL of it to date to billions of years, which just isn't the case as it is not that abundant to begin with. I'm surprised they haven't gone over dating techniques in your evolutionary biology courses? There are other techniques that can be used to date rock such as argon-potassium dating or even paleomagnetic dating which looks at the orientation of ferromagnetic materials in the rock which changes as the earth's magnetic field has fluctuated over time. I think an oxygen isotope dating may have been used on materials trapped in crystals for the earth's oldest dating.

I'm not knocking what you said or anything, I totally agree with most of your post and its good to hear someone who also reconciled their faith with science as not mutually exclusive things!
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:14 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by trashion View Post
Nah, blind faith based on flawed assumptions and a poor understanding of logic has never been my thing.

There are many mysterious things that have happened in my life that I'm sure I could just say a higher power was responsible for, but I think that's a cop-out. There's a reason for everything, and an omnipotent god-figure doesn't factor into that.


If everything happens for a reason, isn't everything predetermined then? If so, then a deity would factor into that. What do you think?


Also, I was just curious, for those who do not believe in a higher being, what do you base your morals on?
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Old 12-24-2008, 01:48 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Fishychic View Post
If everything happens for a reason, isn't everything predetermined then? If so, then a deity would factor into that. What do you think?


Also, I was just curious, for those who do not believe in a higher being, what do you base your morals on?
How does believing in a higher power make a basis for morals? I believe in treating people in a way I want to be treated. That could be argued as a biblical reference I suppose, but to me, it seems that it is inborn common decency that I didnt need to read in a book or hear from a preacher. I'm far from being a perfect human being, but feel I have stronger morals than many who espouse the virtues of God and Jesus.
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Old 12-24-2008, 02:05 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by mrmoby View Post
How does believing in a higher power make a basis for morals? I believe in treating people in a way I want to be treated. That could be argued as a biblical reference I suppose, but to me, it seems that it is inborn common decency that I didnt need to read in a book or hear from a preacher. I'm far from being a perfect human being, but feel I have stronger morals than many who espouse the virtues of God and Jesus.
I was just curious because MANY people base their morals off the scriptures of the bible and also the Ten commandments influences them as well. Yes, it influences them, don't think I said that they follow it accordingly. Everyone makes mistakes.

Inborn common decency? What if God created that with the inborn sense?

If someone is an atheist, what stops them from feeling guilty about taking a life or stealing? Is there a general principle of what is "good" that applys to everyone? Where did it come from? Who says it's good? Premarital sex maybe ok and great for an atheist but its something devout Christians find offensive and intolerable.

Also, you can't just assume that you have stronger morals than many who praise the virtues of God and Jesus. You may know a few "Christians" who do bad things but that doesn't mean that all Christians are like them.


Morals aren't just based on the Golden rule.
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Old 12-24-2008, 02:38 PM   #15
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Heh, I recall the last religious debate here. I think it started in the "I love science" thread. This thread is much more directly to the point. The Political Views thread was constrained to the election, so i bet this thread will be locked up after the holidays are over.


Anyway, I love these threads. You never really know other people's views until they can say them anonymously over the internet, most people aren't as confrontational in real life. I hope it doesn't get locked too soon.

With that being said, I'll jump in on the religious morals point. The human conscience has been with us longer than any scripture. Whether our morals are based on religion or not doesn't make them any "better". If you aren't killing people just because you believe you'll be punished in an afterlife, then that's not really a conscience. I don't need to know I'll be punished if I'm bad in order to be a decent person.


Human morals are universal. From culture to culture, and religion to religion, the basic morals are still there. Sure, there are "Artificial morals and rules" created by certain religions, like fishychic said, premarital sex is one. These rules are completely arbitrary unless attached to some religious meaning, so they aren't the universal ones I'm talking about. Not killing or stealing are two basic human morals, and I think they're "based", like everything else of ours, through an evolutionary purpose. You may say some religions or cultures stealing and murder are more common, but:
You may know a few "Christians" who do bad things but that doesn't mean that all Christians are like them.
applies to every religion.



Oh yeah, one other thing. The kid on youtube is just using kent hovind's arguments, word for word actually in a lot of cases. Just goes to show his argument, and everyone else's about religion is going in one giant circle. It will repeat itself, I've seen a million of these threads on other forums, they always come down to the same points. So by saying this kid's video is "proof" of anything other than his devotion to that religion is a bit out of touch.
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