ALIEN PLANET on Discovery Channel

[TheOldSalt]

"Alien Planet" is about to come on. I've been waiting all week for it! I hope it's good.
If it's like most Discovery Channel premieres, it'll be rerun immediately after the first showing, so you might still have time to catch it.

[Celeste]

meh. i caught the end of their last thing, evolution or something. i saw the part with the giant squid that became terrestial and it all seemed really bogus and fakey to me. i'm not an evolutionist, but i just cannot see how it would benefit squids to come up on land. it's like they just totally made it up without really thinking about how the evolutionary changes would *actually* benefit (or not) the animal. i really have no intrest in watching the alien thing.

[Osiris]

thanx g/f is watchin some remodel show so set it up on my moxi to record it in background thank god for charter's new moxi box

[TheOldSalt]

Well, Celeste, why would it have benefitted anything else to come up onto dry land?

Anyway, I thought it was pretty good, but not great. Some of the stuff they came up with didn't make much sense. The best part was the commentary from the scientists, I thought.

[Osiris]

i missed first 15mins of it, but thought odd how the blue sea looked more like geletan lol.

[Celeste]

i caught the end because there was nothing else on. it was all complete BS. all those scientists were talking aout there behinds. Evolution makes NO sense to me. i don't understand how anyone could believe in it. they claim that life began because of a series of accidental mutations. well, then howcome now whenever a human or animal has an "accidental mutation" it results in brain damage or permanent physical dissability or death? did you know that Darwin recanted all of this theories and found God before he died? his whole evolutionary theory on humans evolving from apes was based on a PIG TOOTH!!!

what about otters? they have roughly 50,000 more hair follicles per square inch of skin than humans. they are mammals, meaning they diverged from humans somewhere along your supposed evolitionary chain. well, if that's so, at some point, humans and otters were part of the same critter and had the same number of hair follicles. well, otters would have had to "grow" or "evolve" roughly 50 hair follicles every hundred years or so. but otters back a million years ago would have had to have the same number of hair follicles to survive as they do now. their hair acts like a barrier to keep them dry and warm in frigid water. they would have died without all those hair follicles 100,000 year ago. not to mention that sea otters 100 years ago had the same number of hair follicles as they do today.

then if you want to argue that humans just LOST all that hair.....well what's the point of that? all that hair would have greatly benefitted humans. we would have been able to keep warm so much easier! but the same theory as above applies to this one, only in reverse. humans would have had to LOSE 50 hair follicles per inch of skin every 100 years, and we know that humans 3000 years ago had about the same number of hair follicles as we do today.

besides all that. i have a REAL problem with evolution being presented as fact. it's NOT, it's a theory. it has NEVER been proven as absolute, unquestionable fact. therefore, it is still a theory, and it needs to be taught and presented as one. and in public schools, if they teach me evolution, they damn well better treat it as a theory AND they better teach Creationism along with it.

[TheOldSalt]

I suspected that this thread could degrade into a religious debate, but I was really hoping it wouldn't.

I could sit here and tear apart your comments with dreaded facts, starting with Darwin's recant being that in the end he figured out that God invented evolution, not that evolution didn't exist. I could go on about random mutations aplenty which don't cause any problems at all. Otters? Don't get me started.

However, I won't go any further. There is obviously no point. You have your opinion and you're welcome to it.
If you think that God didn't have the sense to implement such a wonderfully useful mechanism for longterm universal maintenance as evolution, then that's what you think, and that's that.

Let me guess, you don't believe in life on other planets either, do you?

[shev]

All mutations are completely random. but it is the natural pressures from the environment from which the animal is located that "weed out" the traits not suited for that particular environment.

well, then howcome now whenever a human or animal has an "accidental mutation" it results in brain damage or permanent physical dissability or death?

inferior traits are weeded out through natural selection.

example: malaria in africa was a very large problem. a mutation occurred that's called sickle cell anemia. this trait, or mutation, made the blood cells that malaria attack sickle shaped. malaria enlarges red blood cells until they die, but the sickle shaped blood cells were immune. this allowed the human with the mutation to live longer than others, making the human more able to pass on that superior trait.

thats all evolution is. random mutations being passed on. heck, they mutations dont even have to benefit the animal acording to the definition. but over millions and millions of years those little traits can really build up.

besides all that. i have a REAL problem with evolution being presented as fact. it's NOT, it's a theory. it has NEVER been proven as absolute, unquestionable fact. therefore, it is still a theory, and it needs to be taught and presented as one. and in public schools, if they teach me evolution, they damn well better treat it as a theory AND they better teach Creationism along with it.

a theory isnt just an educated guess. theres a lot more that goes into a theory, like evidence. creationism lacks any real scientific evidence.


theres lots and lots of proof. but science is rarely fact. newtons LAWS of motion, are technically just theories too. some proof is similarities in early development, homologous body structures, geographic distribution, and vestigial organs. until there is enough proof against evolution, then it should be the main theory, and taught in schools.

[Pac-Man]

celeste, you seem kinda offended by this whole alien planet thing. keep in mind its only a tv show, discussion, no one is trying to offend your religious beliefs.

[shev]

oldsalt's right. I dont want a religous discussion either.

we've actually been through this before.
http://www.fishforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=210
the "do you like science" thread derailed into creationism and evolution.

[Celeste]

no, i don't. i know that short-term "evolution" exists. like there were these finches on an island, and one year the nuts of the trees that they ate had thicker hulls due to climate change or rainfall or something like that. well, in response to this environmental stressor, the finches developed thicker, stronger beaks to crack open the nuts. but the next season, when the nuts went back to normal, so did the finches beaks!

i also believe that Humans and Dinosaurs existed at the same time, and that the earth is roughly only 8-10 thousand years old and that carbon dating is complete BS. i also don't understand how evolution starts. ok, life was created from the "muck" but where did the "Muck" come from? where did the rocks that the "muck" sat upon come from? where did the earth and the universe come from? i don't care how old you think the universe is, it had to have "started" somewhere and somehow. it hasn't just always been here. if you go far enough back, all the molecules and atoms in the universe didn't just "Appear" one day. they were created by someone, or something.

[shev]

no, i don't. i know that short-term "evolution" exists. like there were these finches on an island, and one year the nuts of the trees that they ate had thicker hulls due to climate change or rainfall or something like that. well, in response to this environmental stressor, the finches developed thicker, stronger beaks to crack open the nuts. but the next season, when the nuts went back to normal, so did the finches beaks!

read through the link to an old thread. thats macro-evolution. already been adressed.

[Celeste]

Originally Posted by Pac-Man @ Sun May 15, 2005 12:50 pm

celeste, you seem kinda offended by this whole alien planet thing. keep in mind its only a tv show, discussion, no one is trying to offend your religious beliefs.

i'm offended by the fact that evolution is treated and taught as fact. on the show, they presented all these theories about life on other planets and evolution as if they were proven fact, which they are NOT. it has not been proven in any way shape or form. they are simply theories and should be presented as such along with other theories on how we got here.

[Celeste]

[quote="shev @ Sun May 15, 2005 12:48 pm"]a theory isnt just an educated guess. theres a lot more that goes into a theory, like evidence. creationism lacks any real scientific evidence.[quote]

there's plenty of scientific proof of creationism, you just never hear about it because all the people in power in the scientific community don't want you to hear about it. besides that, the majority of people in the US are Christians and believe in Creationism. therefore, i believe it should be taught in schools, along side evolutionism. i can respect other peoples choise to believe in something i don't, but they have to respect my choise to believe in something they don't. i just want both creationsim, and evolution, and whatever other "How we got here" theories there are out there taught in schools and taught as theories, and let the kids and their families decide, based on what makes sense to THEM what they believe.

[Pac-Man]

hmm i disagree on the whole thing of Earth being 8-10 thousand years old and what you said about humans and dinosaurs existing at the same time. i believe in evolution over creationism also because i just dont seem to think that a whole bunch of organisms could just poof out of mid air. just my views though... . I do agree however, that other people's beliefs should be addressed in school, and not just evolution. actually, i think they should stop teaching these theories altogether, to avoid arguements like this

[shev]

i also don't understand how evolution starts. ok, life was created from the "muck" but where did the "Muck" come from? where did the rocks that the "muck" sat upon come from? where did the earth and the universe come from? i don't care how old you think the universe is, it had to have "started" somewhere and somehow. it hasn't just always been here. if you go far enough back, all the molecules and atoms in the universe didn't just "Appear" one day. they were created by someone, or something.

theres the big bang theory trying to explain that one.

what about god then? did he just appear one day, or has always been there. If time exists then everything has to have a beginning. If god always is and always has been it goes against the laws of time.


from the old thread:

it went: abiotic stew (lifelss pool) ---->simple organic molecules ----->rna---->replicated into protein----> i dont remember. today complex living molecules dont randomly form because oxygen is very reactive and would destroy any organic molecules. but when the earth formed it didnt have oxygen in the atmosphere, and if they did form anyway, bacteria would eat them. but there have been experiments having hydrogen, ammonia, and methane (the atmosphere at the time) and sparked it like lightning. amino acids were made, which are building blocks for protein. I think whoever first did the experiment won a nobel prize or something.

[Celeste]

i have seen proof at least of the dinosaurs. i can't remember where i got the 8-10 thousand years thing, i'm not totally set in stone on that one, but i DON'T believe that the earth is 500 gazillion years old like everyone else seems to. i think the earth is a lot younger than is widly accepted.

i'm not going to go any farther because i sound like a freak conspiracy theorist even to myself, and i have no quotable proof and i'm not going to go looking for it. but that's what i believe. i believe in God, that he created us and all the animals on the planet as they appear today. i believe that the complexities of life on this planet are far to great and intricate and incredible to have been "dumb luck and chance" i believe that dinosaurs existed with humans and this planet is not as old as we think. i believe there are a lot of strange animals out there that are extinct that we find the remains of and because they almost look like one kind of animal, and have a few properties of another, oh! they must be a missing link, is complete idiocity.

but mostly, i like to believe that i'm not an accident. that i was put on this earth with a purpose, and that there is a being out there who loves me, and who is looking out for me, and who has a plan for my life, because i certainly dont!

[osteoporoosi]

The muck was formed when supposedly a star exploded, and the remains started to form planets (=our solar system). At first Earth was just magma and volcanos, that released aqueous steam and other gases such as Co2 and nitrogen. Atmosphere started forming, after that heavy rains started and formed the muck, where life began.

In a nutshell, i think this makes sense and in my opinion is the safer way, and it is almost proven in everyday life. I don't think evolution theory offends christians, I'm a christian too. And as someone mentioned, maybe God started the whole thing?

Aren't both creationism and evolution taught already at school? Creationism at theology and philosophy classes and evolution at biology classes?

And sorry for all the folks that are sick and tired of this kind of debates, I couldn't resist

[Celeste]

lots of kids don't take theology and philosophy classes, at least not in the US. at my school they stayed away from "how we got here" all together. i think that if they teach evolution in a biology class, they need to teach creationism right along with it in biology class. it's not against the "sepparation of church and state" (which is a WHOLE other can of worms i won't get into) to teach christianity or creationism in schools. it merely has to be taught with other major religions and "how we got here" theories so that nobody plays favorites.

[TheOldSalt]

Some other guys took a bunch of amino acids and slammed them together in such a way as to simulate an asteroid or cometary impact. The result? Peptides!

I have no problems with the idea that the building blocks of life can be formed by simple physics. Frankly, all life is is a complex series of self-resetting electrochemical reactions interacting with each other and governed by the laws of physics. In effect, nothing is really alive when you really think about it. We are made of the same elements as the rocks, but those elements are simply arranged differently.

On the other hand, I don't believe for a minute that the arrangement of those molecules happened all by accident.

I believe in evolution. There is no definition of life, but life has characteristics, and one of those characteristics is the ability to change in response to stimuli.
Evolution is only a theory, but then so is gravity.

The thing I don't understand is why so many people think that it doesn't exist. To say that something so wondrous and perfect and useful as evolution does not exist strikes me as a grave insult to God. These same people seem to think that He got everything else right, so why don't they give Him any credit for coming up with something like this?
Why can't God have used His nifty labor-saving tool to shape the world?