[rastarainy]

Hello I need some advice regarding the water clarity of my tank...I currently have a 150g tank filled with 40 juvenile rb piranha...yes its overstocked but i made a massive DIY filter to cope with all the waste..........my PH is currently 6.4, Ammonia, Nitrite, and nitrate all have zero readings.......but for some reason my water is so cloudy and pale greenish that I cant even see half way through my tank when looking through the side of it.......

Any thoughts of what I should do or why it is like this?......Im looking for a permanent fix here.......I was next thinking of trying chemicals designed to clarify the water, and then if that didn't work I would try a UV sterilizer......but after that I have no idea what to do

And its not a new tank.....been running for months..........

thx for your help.........

 

[redpaulhus]

The readings don't sound right to me - there shouldn't be zero total nitrogen in the system unless you are doing huge daily water changes (which would probably preclude the green water) -- there should be at least some nitrate if nothing else (assuming a large wet/dry filter thats well seeded and established).

My first choice would be the above mentioned huge daily water changes, along with a UV Sterilizer - but only if your certain the system has cycled and stabilized.

The biggest filter you can imagine won't help resolve overcrowding without lots of water changes - the filter only processes waste, it doesn't remove waste.

 

[rastarainy]

Yeah I actually do have a good amount of nitrates in my tank from a recent test, but Im pretty sure that doesnt create water cloudiness right? But there has to be a casue or reason for the greenish cloudiness, so what Im trying to find out what exactly is wrong with the water so I can fix it.............

So I guess ill try a UV sterilizer and frequent water changes, but is there anything else that could be causing the cloudiness that wouldnt be solved by UV sterilizer and waterchanges...........because when I do lots of water changes, the ckoudy water comes back within a week.............?

 

[smark]

Maybe try a couple of sponge filters. They do wonders for water polishing.

 

[redpaulhus]

A few things going on here.

Green cloudiness is free floating algae.
Algae use nitrogen (and phosphate) as "food" - so excesses of either ammonia or nitrates plus excess phosphate plus too much lighting = green water.

Your comment that the nitrates were zero were what threw me off. Do you know what they actually are ?

What are you using for water conditioner(s) and ph buffers (if any) ?
What is your water change schedule ?
What is your filter cleaning schedule ? What kind of "homemade" filter do you have - how does it work ? How big is it ?

You might be getting cloudy water after water changes because you are making them too big and too infrequently, or you are cleaning your filter too close to the water change timeframe, or over-cleaning your filter, or you're adding nutrients to the system (phospate based buffers for example) or your tap water contains chloramine but your only removing the chlorine not the ammonia leading to an ammonia spike and resulting "mini-cycle" after every water change - or a combination of many of the above factors.

oh - and how big are the little guys ?

 

[rastarainy]

A few things going on here.
Green cloudiness is free floating algae.

>>>>>So would a UV Sterilizer solve that problem or at least help in any way?

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Algae use nitrogen (and phosphate) as "food" - so excesses of either ammonia or nitrates plus excess phosphate plus too much lighting = green water.

>>>>>Well I know I have zero ammonia, but I do have some nitrates(not sure how much), but I dont know about phosphates---What causes phosphates? And I have 2 flourescent lights for my tank, one for each half, and they are on about 8-10 hours a day........usually
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Your comment that the nitrates were zero were what threw me off. Do you know what they actually are ?
>>>>>sorry about that, but I dont know what they are, but I most likly have them....
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What are you using for water conditioner(s) and ph buffers (if any) ?
>>>>>I use prime, some garlic extract for their immune systems, and some proper PH 6.5
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What is your water change schedule ?
>>>>>Whenever I get a chance, which is not that often,,,,,maybe 2-3 times a month.....which is why I do large water changes......50-75%
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What is your filter cleaning schedule ? What kind of "homemade" filter do you have - how does it work ? How big is it ?
>>>>>>>>>Well first off as a additive/backup filter I have an emperor 400 on the back of my tank............

but I then constructed an elaborate filter system which takes too much time too describe how it works.......but basically I took five 18g container-like-tubawares and put two on top and three on the bottom.....the water first comes out of my tank through an overflow system then into the first top left chamber where it is forced to go through several filter sponges then overflow through a pipe into the next chamber on the top right where it flows through a 50 micron sock filter then down onto a drip tray with two super-activated carbon pads and under that is a polishing filter pad (all on top of the drip tray), then flows down and meets bio-balls then trickles down (like a wet/dry) into the chamber bellow it (bottom left) then into more bio-balls................
from there it travels left through more pvc pipe and into another chamber (midle-bottom) filled with ceramic rings. Then it keeps flowing left into the last chamber (bottom-left) where it meets my pump fitterd with a sponge filter then back into my tank.......


.......On a side note....I was thinking of doing the following things also to my filter...What do you think?

1.) Put plants (that grow half way out of water so I dont have to inject C02) in the last chamber with the pump so they would suck up nitrates, ect. and put a light above them....

2.)Putting an additional pump in the last chamber with the original pump that would suck water back up to the top of the filter so some of the water would travel through the filter system twice.........
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You might be getting cloudy water after water changes because you are making them too big and too infrequently, or you are cleaning your filter too close to the water change timeframe, or over-cleaning your filter, or you're adding nutrients to the system (phospate based buffers for example)
>>>>> Ill look into that thx....

or your tap water contains chloramine but your only removing the chlorine not the ammonia leading to an ammonia spike and resulting "mini-cycle" after every water change - or a combination of many of the above factors.
>>>>>The PRIME and the PROPER PH 6.5 BUFFER I use gets rid of all ammonia, chlorine, chloromine, and toxins in the water before it goes in my tank during a water change...........
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oh - and how big are the little guys ?
>>>>>By now there all about 1-4 inches each, all varying in sizes, they seem to be doing well, only a few nipped fins here in there...........

btw thx for all your help and advice, its all greatly appreciated............

 

[emc7]

ok, the proper pH 6.5 is most likely a blend of phosphate buffers. If your water is hard, and high pH, the buffers lower pH by 'precipitating' out of solutions some of the ions in the water, thus making it cloudy, It also add phosphate to the water, which while harmless to fish, do feed algae. UV sterilizer would help the green cloudiness but not the white cloudiness. "Micron filtration" would help both, but while it works great in the short term, it is a lot of work to keep going long term. I am not a fan of 'clarifying additives', they can cause new problems and also aren't a long-term solution. Like-wise, blacking out the tank would kill the green stuff short-term but not affect the white, nor work long-term.

Do you really need to drop the pH with buffer? What is your tap's pH and what is it after it sits overnight? Could you dilute the tap with RO or rainwater instead of buffering? Have you tried peat in the filter? IME all pH lowering products tend to produce cloudiness in some water conditions. If you water is nice and clear just after a large water change and buffering, I could be wrong about the source of cloudinesses. If your new, treated water change water is cloudy because of the buffer, you will never get a clear tank. Other possible sources of cloudy water are bacteria (which eat ammonia & nitrate, too) and certain foods.

Do you have a nitrate test or are just guessing? Most tanks have some nitrates. Have you thoroughly cleaned all your filters and substrate lately? Some filters and substrates will essential 'stockpile' waste and allow it to decay slowly over time creating an endless nitrate supply. Of course, high nitrates are a natural product of feeding a lot of growing fry, too. There are nitrate removing products, but some don't work, others are pricey or difficult to use. Water changes are usually best for dropping nitrate and they have the added benefit of diluting the cloudiness, too.

I don't think running water through a filter twice will remove anything it can't take out in one pass.

I like the idea of plants in the sump. I think they call that a refugium or something like that. Anything that feeds on your water will help to starve the algae.

 

[rastarainy]

ok, the proper pH 6.5 is most likely a blend of phosphate buffers. If your water is hard, and high pH, the buffers lower pH by 'precipitating' out of solutions some of the ions in the water, thus making it cloudy, It also add phosphate to the water, which while harmless to fish, do feed algae. UV sterilizer would help the green cloudiness but not the white cloudiness. "Micron filtration" would help both, but while it works great in the short term, it is a lot of work to keep going long term. I am not a fan of 'clarifying additives', they can cause new problems and also aren't a long-term solution. Like-wise, blacking out the tank would kill the green stuff short-term but not affect the white, nor work long-term.
>>>>>>>>>Well my PH is constantly dropping all the time, so I use proper PH 6.5 to higher my PH not lower it........so is it still the same case about what you said above?
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Do you really need to drop the pH with buffer? What is your tap's pH and what is it after it sits overnight? Could you dilute the tap with RO or rainwater instead of buffering? Have you tried peat in the filter? IME all pH lowering products tend to produce cloudiness in some water conditions. If you water is nice and clear just after a large water change and buffering, I could be wrong about the source of cloudinesses. If your new, treated water change water is cloudy because of the buffer, you will never get a clear tank. Other possible sources of cloudy water are bacteria (which eat ammonia & nitrate, too) and certain foods.
>>>>>>>>>>Again I always raise my PH never lower it.....
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Do you have a nitrate test or are just guessing?
>>>>>Just guessing
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Most tanks have some nitrates. Have you thoroughly cleaned all your filters and substrate lately? Some filters and substrates will essential 'stockpile' waste and allow it to decay slowly over time creating an endless nitrate supply. Of course, high nitrates are a natural product of feeding a lot of growing fry, too. There are nitrate removing products, but some don't work, others are pricey or difficult to use. Water changes are usually best for dropping nitrate and they have the added benefit of diluting the cloudiness, too.
>>>>>>>>>Again Ill have to look into my nitrate levels
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I don't think running water through a filter twice will remove anything it can't take out in one pass.
>>>>>>>>>Well it couldnt hurt right? I was thinking of purchasing a turbo twist UV sterilizer and placing it in the last chamber in my sump and taking off the "shell" of UV sterilizer so the light would pass through and putting it right in front of where the water enters the last chamber so all the water passes by it, ......I would also, since the sterilizer is a pump, connect tubes to it so it sucks water out of the last chamber and right back up to the top of the filter,,,,so then some of the water passes through the whole filter, and the UV sterlizer twice..........
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I like the idea of plants in the sump. I think they call that a refugium or something like that. Anything that feeds on your water will help to starve the algae.
>>>>>>The reason I ask about this is what I read from a previous article...

"Plants can use some nitrogenous waste as fertilizer, though they will only be able to process this as they photosynthesize during the day. The concentration of nitrogenous waste used by plants will be so minimal as to make no significant difference in water quality. At night, however, plants respire just as animals do, and will be producing nitrogenous waste."

However Ive seen countless freshwater aquariums with plant filters like lucky bamboo that seem to work wonders.....What do you think?
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So it sounds like I definitely need to get a UV sterilizer, and find an effective way to get rid of nitrates and phosphates......

Anything else I should do for OPTIMUM water clarity?
Thx for all your help

 

[emc7]

Plants don't take out enough nitrate to stop doing water changes (usually, I know some people with planted tank who add nitrate, but they have very few fish). But they do take out phosphates and trace things that also feed algae. If you can get plants to outcompete the algae by making your tank plant-friendly, then, theorectically, the algae will starve and you won't have green water anymore. And plants that grow in water will filter the water somewhat.

For really soft water with a falling pH, I wouldn't expect cloudiness from buffer because it would all dissolve unless you really overdosed it. You could try a competing product like SeaChem's acid regulator and see if that helps. Or you could see what garlic extract does to the clarity of tap water.

Have your water tested and post the numbers, even if its just test strips.

Cloudiness is not harmful in itself, but it can be an indication that all is not well with the tank. Bacteria blooms clouding the water is common during cycling. So verify that you have no nitrite and that your nitrates are under control. Falling pH can be an indication of very high levels. Its not impossible that the tank needs another filter or weekly 75% water changes to keep up with the large bioload.

 

[rastarainy]

So it sounds like I need to equip my tank with some live plants.......which I have two questions about.......

1.) What specific light would be best for the plants that I could get at a good price, since the plants only suck up the waste during photosynthesis, it would be best to equip them with a powerful light that will will allow them to do this at optimum levels.....

2.) What specific plants would be the best for doing this.....the plants have to be ones that grow half way out of the water so I dont have to inject C02, but also utilize the space their given in the last chamber in my sump so that thier is a good ratio between the amount of space each plant takes up compared with the amount of waste sucked up.......

I live in Florida so some plants are illegal here.........and I also dont want to go digging around in the wild and lakes for them either.......something that can be purchased from a store........

..........I was thinking of something like lucky bamboo.however they have a slow growth rate so they wont process as much waste..any ideas on a plant that matches my criteria and grows fast? (also a hardy plant too)

 

[jones57742]

... but i made a massive DIY filter to cope with all the waste..........

ry: Just curious but can you provided a schematic, description and/or photographs of this filter?

my PH is currently 6.4, Ammonia, Nitrite, and nitrate all have zero readings.......but for some reason my water is so cloudy and pale greenish that I cant even see half way through my tank when looking through the side of it.......

ry: Your comments are nonsequitors as noted by rp.

....I was next thinking of trying chemicals designed to clarify the water, and then if that didn't work I would try a UV sterilizer...

Flocculates do not function very well for algae but even if they did, IMHO, putting any chemicals into a tank is not good.

If you implement UV sterilization your biological filtration will "go dead" on you.

Any thoughts of what I should do or why it is like this?......Im looking for a permanent fix here...

ry: my comments are based on those of others:

ok, the proper pH 6.5 is most likely a blend of phosphate buffers.

Via my experimentation with dry fertilizers I believe that even minimal concentrations of phosphates will cause or at least significantly contribute to your green water.

"Micron filtration" would help both, but while it works great in the short term, it is a lot of work to keep going long term.

e7 is not woofing about the maintenance necessary for micron filtration but in the "short run" it will help a bunch in clarifying the green water which will allow "long term" implementations to be effective much quicker.

I like the idea of plants in the sump. I think they call that a refugium or something like that. Anything that feeds on your water will help to starve the algae.

ry: I have implemented an illuminated freshwater refugium in the 2nd chamber of my wet/dry sump and it appears to be effective in lowering nitrate concentrations in the tank water.

So it sounds like I need to equip my tank with some live plants.......which I have two questions about.......

In order to provide cost effective input with respect to 1.) and 2.) could you give us a link to your current lighting and provide a description of your existing substrate?

TR

 

[Toshogu]

Stick alt of plants in your tank, very few planted tanks have an algea problem. If you don't want to do that you're gonna have to figuere a way to get rid of nitrates and phosphates using filter material, chems etc. Lots of plants is the easier way to do it i think

 

[rastarainy]

jones57742;217793]ry: Just curious but can you provided a schematic, description and/or photographs of this filter?

>>>>>Im not actually at my home state right now so Im not near my filter to do any of that...and Im not sure I know how anyway...but when I get home I will try....
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Your comments are nonsequitors as noted by rp.
>>>>>>I didnt mean to say that I had zero nitrates, becuase I proboly do, but I di test PH, ammonia, and nitrites, and there all zero....

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If you implement UV sterilization your biological filtration will "go dead" on you.

>>>>>i dont understand how that is? Tons of aquariums have UV sterlizers in them, It would only kill free floating bacteria right?, not kill my bacteria population harvested in all my bio media..........All the previous people say that a UV sterilizer is a good idea and that it will significantly help with my green water.........

Why do you say different.........?
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e7 is not woofing about the maintenance necessary for micron filtration but in the "short run" it will help a bunch in clarifying the green water which will allow "long term" implementations to be effective much quicker.

>>>>Could you expand on that a little......?
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In order to provide cost effective input with respect to 1.) and 2.) could you give us a link to your current lighting and provide a description of your existing substrate?
>>>>Im not actually going to put the plants in my tank because they would get destroyed by my 40 rb piranha.......I was going to put it in my sump in the last chamber.........So I need some good advice for a light and which plants to buy.............

 

[redpaulhus]

Lots of good advice above, lots of stuff that echo'd what I was gonna say.

Pothos would make a good terestrial plant to use as an vegatative filter - put the end of some pothos vines in the filter (or in the tank itself if you have hanging lights or a well lit room) and the vines should grow quickly.

I would add some buffering materials to the filter - I use cuttlebone in alot of my tanks, it slowly dissolves and keeps the KH and pH stable. I prefer it to messing too much with the water additives, although I have had success using Seachem's Alkaline Buffer to raise the KH of new water (for weekly water changes).

I've had issues using UV units on tanks that hadn't finished cycling - the tanks didn't finish - but we turned off the UV for 2 months, got the rack cycled, and then put the UV back on, and didn't have any problems after that (but we also didn't disturb the wet-dry filters either). As far as I know that rack stayed cycled until the store got bought and remodeled 5+ years later.
However - I wouldn' NEVER EVER remove the sheild from a UV unit. You can do major damage to your eyes that way. If you buy a UV unit use it exactly as directed with no modifications !
(petsmart is selling a drop-in unit, basically a powerhead with a flowthru UV unit attached, for fairly short money - I think it comes in two sizes and the bigger size might work for you).

Here's a thought - if your gonna keep these guys together long-term, you're gonna need either a) a much much MUCH bigger tank or b) much more frequent water changes. The green water is a sign of a impending problem due to degraded water quality. Building a large water holding tank and flow-thru water change system for automatic daily water changes would be one option, another would be custom building a properly sized and filtered tank for these guys, possibly including a sand filter as well as a huge wet-dry filter, or a very large vegatative filter (like a 150g sump full of emersed plants that are pruned regularly).

 

[emc7]

Seachem's Alkaline Buffer, cuttlebone, limestone etc. are all carbonate buffers. You can use them instead of phosphate buffer to raise kH and pH. But they are a bit less of a 'lock on' pH than the phosphate blends and you won't be able to call the water 'soft'. But even a little baking soda will help stabilize your pH in the absence of other buffers.

I kind of agree that cloudy water is the least of your problems (40 piranha). A pond might be a nice addition to your yard.

 

[rastarainy]

Ok thx for everybodys advice!

So heres what it sounds like Im going to do......

1. Buy Seachem's Alkaline Buffer or cuttlebone buffer

2. Buy Pothos and put them in my last chmaber of the sump

Question though.....will putting more than just the ends of the vines in the water suck up more waste...or should I just only put the ends of the vines in

3. Find an efective way to get rid of nitrates and phosphates

.....Which I will be doing by using non-phospahte based buffers and using plants to suck them up

4. I will also purchase a UV sterilizer to counter bacterial blooms and free-floating algae......to help with the green water........

5. And one of you suggested......

"Building a large water holding tank and flow-thru water change system for automatic daily water changes would be one option, al plant to use as an vegatative filter"

.......So could somebody expand on that and give me references of effective AUTOMATIC WATER CHANGE SYSTEMS that can be put on a timer or something that will drain and fill my tank or something that will at least make the maintenece of water changing ALOT EASIER!!!

references such as videos, schematic, pictures, plans, ANTHING!!!

6. But is there aything else I can do to ensure absolute perfect water clarity THX!!!

 

[emc7]

Look at the safety siphon. http://jehmco.com/html/safety_siphon_aquarium_drain.html Its not truly automatic, you have to stick in in and plug it in. But the pump will take out a large amount of water quickly and you can use a hose from the sink to fill the tank back up.
Some people use the same pumps they use for sumps and some of the hoses for water changes. You might also clean the sump by "backflushing" it with clean water.

To get perfect water clarity, I think you have to use micron filtration full-time. Since they usually clog up in a few days, it will be a major effort. You could get a magnum 350 http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/prcansiterfilters/fr/fprmagnum350.htm and about 3 extra micron filters and rotate them. A diatomaceaous earth filter like a Diatom XL, would work also. You might rig up something with the sump pump, but putting something that will clog in your primary filter is risky (it clogs, you have no filter and water on the filoor) and you will likely want a higher flow rate through the micron filter than trhought the biological filter.

 

[jones57742]

ry First: I very much appreciate your enthusiasm and the time which you spent in responses in this thread as many times we spend a ton of time preparing posts and the thread starter does not even respond much less implement!

1. Buy Seachem's Alkaline Buffer or cuttlebone buffer

I have reviewed the INDOT specifications book and limestone is listed first in the production of aggregate materials.

IMHO the absolute best approach would be to acquire a large limestone rock (like 5" in diameter) and place the rock in your sump.

2. Buy Pothos and put them in my last chmaber of the sump

Based on my limited experience with house plants (rp may have much more) I do not believe that Pothos will achieve your goal.

I do believe that placing Anacharis (Egeria densa) as floating plants in your sump will significantly reduce the nitrate concentration in your tank water.

3. Find an efective way to get rid of nitrates and phosphates

The Anacharis in the sump should help with the nitrate concentration reduction.

Your cessation of inducing phosphate compounds in your tank water should address this issue.

5. And one of you suggested......

"Building a large water holding tank and flow-thru water change system for automatic daily water changes would be one option, al plant to use as an vegatative filter"

.......So could somebody expand on that and give me references of effective AUTOMATIC WATER CHANGE SYSTEMS ...

To my knowledge a "plug and play" system does not exist.

An automatic system can be fabricated but such fabrication is "something else" and these systems are typically employed in retail environments where multiple tanks overflow into a common filtration sump which is located near a source of electricity, of inflow from potable or RO water and outflow to a domestic sewer system.

To get perfect water clarity, I think you have to use micron filtration full-time. Since they usually clog up in a few days, it will be a major effort.

... and about 3 extra micron filters and rotate them.

ry: In my 110G tank filtration process the typical blue and white mechanical filtration media will clog in three days, the 100Mu media in a day and the 50Mu media in a couple of hours.


Lighting for the Sump

I recommend 2WPG and PC (Power Compact).

If you order a Dual Satellite request that the Actinic bulb be replaced with a Dual 10000K/7100K bulb.


Fertilization

Once you "get plants to going" in your sump you will be able to add Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4), Magnesium Sulfate (MgSO4)
CSM+B in order to further control algae.

TR

 

[rastarainy]

Your advice all sounds great but I just have a few questions about it.........
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I have reviewed the INDOT specifications book and limestone is listed first in the production of aggregate materials.
IMHO the absolute best approach would be to acquire a large limestone rock (like 5" in diameter) and place the rock in your sump.

>>>>>>First where would I get aquarium safe limestone that big, and If Im using it as a buffer, what will it make my PH level?, because I need it at like 6.5 for my piranha
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I do believe that placing Anacharis (Egeria densa) as floating plants in your sump will significantly reduce the nitrate concentration in your tank water.

>>>>In your experience what made you think that they would work the best? and wont I have to inject C02? But Even if I have to, it will be woth it as long as the job gets done............
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3. Find an efective way to get rid of nitrates and phosphates
Your cessation of inducing phosphate compounds in your tank water should address this issue.
>>>>>Does limstone actually remove phoshates or does it just not produce them like the buffer Im using now? And is limstone a buffer that will make my PH 6.5?
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Thx again.................JM

 

[emc7]

Limestone (calcium carbonate) just doesn't add phosphates. It add carbonate ions. Generally referred to as kH. Usually, increasing kH will reduce the drop off of pH over time and possibly raise pH (depending on home much you add). But unlike a blend of 2 buffer like in the phosphate "regulator" products, it won't hold a specific pH. SeaChem packaging does have instructions on how to blend alkaline buffer with acid buffer to get a specific pH.

The first "natural' intervention to try to keep pH up is to put a bag of limestone substrate or crushed coral in the filter. If the pH goes too high, you reduce the quantity, if it falls too far, you can add more (like replace all the gravel with crushed coral), It is easier than buffers and often works well. But "soft water" is considered low TDS and low kH. Put too much carbonate of any kind in and you can't call it 'soft water' anymore. Using a small amount in the filter is less likely to cause your pH to rise too far than adding carbonate buffer to the water. However, it also has a higher chance of being inadequate.